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Classical Corner Classical Music Corner (thread #21)

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by OE3, Jan 18, 2011.

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  1. George P

    George P Notable Member

    Location:
    NYC
    Yeah, I just have seen friendly discussions between online friends quickly turn into all out wars, when they could have been averted by polite, respectful disagreement. I'd hate for that to happen in our friendly thread here, whether with you, me or anyone else.

    Also, I would hate for Jay to blindly believe either you or I when it comes to Celibidache's Bruckner. Surely the best person to judge what Jay likes is Jay, right?

    Sure, I have seen many times that the one thing that works so well for one listener does not work at all for another. I have heard almost all of Wand's RCA set and all of Jochum's DG set. I enjoy them, but I don't love them at all, especially not the Wand. If these performances are close/closer to what Bruckner put in the score (and I don't doubt that they are) then that's an important fact to point out. However, as we have seen, this doesn't mean that the listener will necessarily enjoy it more than other, more radical interpretations. If I enjoy the much more radically interpreted Celibidache Bruckner or Richter's Schubert, then I have to be true with what I enjoy, right? Surely I can't think it wrong to enjoy these interpretations?

    As I stated earlier in a previous thread, I choose to believe that Bruckner (or Schubert, etc.) would rather me listen to those who interpret their works in ways that I love, rather than those whom interpret it in ways that I only somewhat enjoy (so that I rarely listen to their works) or not at all.
     
  2. mkolesa

    mkolesa Forum Resident

    i don't mean to nit-pick but the name is actually georg tintner.
    :wave:
     
  3. Rose River Bear

    Rose River Bear Senior Member

    Very well said. However, Celi knew he was disregarding composer tempo markings. It was a very personal approach on his part. :cheers:
     
  4. Rose River Bear

    Rose River Bear Senior Member

    Very well said. Your analysis is the reason why there are lunatics like me that have ten versions of a classical work. 083.gif
     
  5. Rose River Bear

    Rose River Bear Senior Member

    That is nit picking..too bad he did not know how to spell his own name!;););)
     
  6. George P

    George P Notable Member

    Location:
    NYC
    Yes, we've done a good job of avoiding it here for sure, but it can erupt very quickly and I feel we have a very good thing going here, in fact, one of the best classical discussions i have found online anywhere, so I am going to try my best to be civil.

    I now what you are saying, but I have yet to learn how to bad mouth a recording in a constructive way. There's something about criticizing music that makes it very, very hard to not do so in a ruthless manner, at least for me anyway. Also, I don't really know what the composer wants in most cases. In fact, ultimately (as stated above), I think that what the listener wants is more important than what the composer wanted.
     
  7. Bronth

    Bronth Active Member

    Location:
    Riga, Latvia
    It seems to me that Gould also knew that he was playing the Moonlight too fast and squarely. Is it disregarding? Probably yes. Is it rewarding? In my ears, YES. And I still hear the Moonlight, only a different one.
     
  8. George P

    George P Notable Member

    Location:
    NYC
    :laugh:
     
  9. George P

    George P Notable Member

    Location:
    NYC
    Have you heard Josef Hoffman play that first movement? He starts really fast, but then slows down a bit, using a gorgeous rubato throughout.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-3LxOrlc94&playnext=1&list=PL6E74475C5B37B4FE
     
  10. George P

    George P Notable Member

    Location:
    NYC
    I'd go see any film directed by our Robin. :righton:
     
  11. Bronth

    Bronth Active Member

    Location:
    Riga, Latvia
    Just have listened to this, thanks for the link. :wave: :righton: It sounds like at some point he realised that there could have been tons of eggs and tomatoes around him but after that his speed metal soul returned with revenge and even added that start-stop phrasing (comparable to, say, Berman's, even though completely different) anathemized by many purists. (I'm not among them and thoroughly enjoy, for instance, this set panned by some critics for that same reason. Kocsis plays Chopin in a more straight manner, but Raymond is an essential addition, IMO.)

    So, Gould wasn't alone in that hooligan's gang conducted by Celi. :edthumbs:
     
  12. coopmv

    coopmv Newton 1/30/2001 - 8/31/2011

    Location:
    CT, USA
    Is anyone familiar with Howard Shelley as a pianist?

    I am considering this Rachmaninoff's set ...

    [​IMG]
     
  13. coopmv

    coopmv Newton 1/30/2001 - 8/31/2011

    Location:
    CT, USA
    Yes, it was Royal Scot. Orch./Tintner ... :winkgrin:
     
  14. Rose River Bear

    Rose River Bear Senior Member

    I would try some of the single recordings first and see what you think. I like some of his Rach but not his interpretation of the sonatas. I would get other performers but for an overall set it is not bad. :cheers:
     
  15. George P

    George P Notable Member

    Location:
    NYC
    When I was looking to get a first copy of the complete Etudes Tableaux, I compared his set to Ogdon's set on Testament. I definitely preferred the latter and haven't needed to get a second recording since.
     
  16. George P

    George P Notable Member

    Location:
    NYC
    [​IMG]

    First spin, but I am loving this already!
     
  17. coopmv

    coopmv Newton 1/30/2001 - 8/31/2011

    Location:
    CT, USA
    I have a good number of Rachys by Ashy. Among other pianists in my Rachy collection are Weissenberg, Osborne and Davidovich. I probably have a few by S Richter in the DG box set as well. I have heard a few Rachy's by Earl Wild may be worth collecting as well ...
     
  18. George P

    George P Notable Member

    Location:
    NYC
    :agree:

    Get the ones on Chesky, as the sound is better than the Chandos.
     
  19. coopmv

    coopmv Newton 1/30/2001 - 8/31/2011

    Location:
    CT, USA
    George, Thanks for the reminder, as I bought this set a few months ago and it already included a few works by Rachy ...

    [​IMG]
     
  20. coopmv

    coopmv Newton 1/30/2001 - 8/31/2011

    Location:
    CT, USA
    One of the problems with those mega boxes of recent years is it is almost impossible to keep track of what works are actually included. I have quite a number of those boxes by S Richter, Argerich, Grimaud, Michelangeli and Lupu but do not have a clue as to where I can find works of Rachy ... :shake:
     
  21. George P

    George P Notable Member

    Location:
    NYC
    I guess you're just going to have to listen to them.
     
  22. coopmv

    coopmv Newton 1/30/2001 - 8/31/2011

    Location:
    CT, USA
    I do not have photographic memory and have only zipped through these sets once. I think the DG set by S Richter has a few Rachy's works since the set was advertised to have included every recording Richter had made with DG between the mid 50's to mid 60's ...
     
  23. George P

    George P Notable Member

    Location:
    NYC
    Hey, I was mostly kidding. (I put the wink in the title section) :wave:

    It's surely worth checking the boxes to see what is in there if you haven't listened to them enough to know what is in there. I hate buying stuff twice, which is probably why I pretty much know what I have on my shelves. And like you, I don't have a photographic memory.
     
  24. Baron Von Talbot

    Baron Von Talbot Well-Known Member

    Well, how can you know.? This comes across as totally oversized ego.
    Your concentration on the good old dead guys is your personal obsession that I mostly do not share and funnily in those cases I happen to really love one of those dead old farts (Perlemiter / Germaine Thyssen) you seem to be the wise nosed I know this better guy withoput actually explaining the way you come to these conclusions in a way that I could follow.
    So I simply ignore your personal tips , other than in those cases where I by< chance share your opinion - Cortot Rubinstein Richter Gilels amo.
    You know a lot more piano recordings and players, but what does that mean in the end ?
    Music is about emptions and personal taste not a sport where you can actually measure who plays the most notes per second..
    A recording either grabs me emotionally or it doesn't !
    In those cases where I enjoy nearly every recording I hear by a certain artist I have a favorite.
    My favorite overall is Kissin by a mile and I happen to be in the company of the majority of classical music fans.
    If you don't get him I simply cannot understand you, nor the reasons behindt. What exactly do those people want: better technique ?
    This is the typical hypocrisy of all so called self explained experts, they always tend to trash the superstars and like the outsider or those who did the same 100 years ago (better ? I doubt it/ Never before were there more perfect piano players. Okay not every perfect player is a genious, but they all try their best and without being technivally 9,9 of 10 you don't get a recording contract in the 21st century! Only those who add real emotion, deep understanding of the music they play, think hard about what the composers had in mind PLUS tons of dedication have a chance to be recognized and make a living from their performances..
    Hope ypu don't think this a personal arrack, just the troth my mind.
    I respect you 100%.
    How Schumann or Chopin would like his notes been played today is a question only for the gods .
    Are you sure they always prefer it as close to their intention ? Maybe they like a certain personal twist ?
    With Mozart and Beethoven things are different!
    I found that those who stick to the notes as close as possible impress me most. That is why I love Vlado Perlemuter and Germaine-Thyssens so much..and Herbert Von Karajan.
    People often say that his early recordings first and second cycles are the best and that those from later decades don't add anything substantial to the first cycles.
    Why should he change his understanding of the notes Beethove wrote down with 69m if he digged it with 40 already ?
    Okay I agree that the late 60ers Berliner Philharmoniker have that magic golden touch.
    I am knee dep onto that recordings. The complete Ring Der Nibelingen, all symphonies and so much more.. all worth checking out.
    But that doesn't take anything from the same world recorded 20 years later.
    Je hust is the prfect conductor .

    I am importing more than 100 Karajan CD's atm. and yet have to find somthing I don't like (Okay Brahms Marches and many Strauus pieces are not exactly my cup of tea).. From 1967 50 1081...

    This Box 4 is of specual interest for me. So many names I didn't know before.
    Stuff to last a life time... Hope the HD lasts long enough..lol
     

    Attached Files:

  25. George P

    George P Notable Member

    Location:
    NYC
    Thanks, buddy! It's nice to be understood, respected and appreciated. :wave:
     
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