Classical Corner Classical Music Corner (thread #38)

In many forms of Art, people are willing to both accept and look at an artist's attempt at coming to what is presently considered at this point in time ....their final completed result. What people would not give to hear...the alleged completed 8th Symphony of Sibelius, said toi have been thown in the fore by Sibelius in a fit of depression. Luckily we got his Kullervo Symphony though, which he forbid -being performed in his lifetime.
In the case of Music, if we take the strict opposite view should we eschew or value of , listening let alone equally accepting- any 'original version' of a Work if there is in existence, a composer's own 'later revised edition' ?
Where do we start the mammoth task? .
In the case of Opera, all the reconsiderations , the necessary expediencies in play,, and after-thoughts......heavens!!! Just think Mussorgsky's Boris Godounov, Offenbach's Tales of Hoffmann', Wagner's Dresden and Paris versions of Tannhauser, Verdi's various editions of Macbeth.or his 4 (italian) and 5 Act (french)versions of Don Carlos, ...and we do not want to go there!
Someone please enlighten or correct me if I am wrong on the following point.
I seem to remember reading somewhere that Mahler in his capacity as a conductor (when in the U.S) : was actually noted, conducting Wagner's 'seamless' Tristan & Isolde in New York. And that he actually cut the score a good deal ,down to as low as 3 hours!. The simple practical reason in those days - patrons needed to get home in time for bed and rest..The accepted workers' hours were then so much longer than today.
If so, Mahler himself was not such a strict performing 'purist' himself.
Looking at all the castigation of his compositions in his lifetime, if alive today I think Mahler would be flattered by the attention he receives posthumously. And we must not forget that Mahler also not only may have revised some of his own work...BUT did work - revising and reconstruction of Weber's Die Drei Pintos - the Weber -Mahler full length opera "The Three Pintos"...I happen to have both vinyl and CD copies of it on my shelves!

 

Brand New....Ebay....Ion Records...$5.88 shipped

 

Thus Spoke Collector Man...(low rumble of organ bass in background)

Wonderful essay about Mahler. Sure hope that South American Dude who is trying to conduct the LAP, reads your thoughts and educates himself. I heard a recording (made in South America) of the Dude trying his best to conduct Mahler Symphony No. 8, via a KFAC-FM broadcast. I turned it off. I had to get one of my LP copies to clear up the air in my Music Salon. Ha.

Once again, I took the liberty to copy your wonderfully written essay and save it in my files.

How did you ever get such a skill in writing about classical music and composers and artists.

Have you ever published?

Cheers, Long Play Fan

Enjoying this 2 LP Box set on a hot humid night in Southern California after a restful week in Palm Springs, CA at my good friends pool side estate. I love the desert.

RCA Victor LSC 7050 Stereo Produced by Max Wilcox, Recording Engineer: Sergio Marcotulli, Recorded in the RCA Italiana Studios, Rome, Italy, in 1967...only 45 years ago !@#

Terrific Performance, Terrific Audio Engineering and Sound. Vinyl quiet as a black cat walking on a plush carpet in the desert at night without a full moon.....

 

Thus Spoke Collector Man.....

I really think you have a lot of SHMF thread 38 members reading your wonderfully written essays more than once.

They are full of thick and powerful information, which I really enjoy to read more than once.

I wish some #38 members would take your lead and learn how to write good reviews and essays.

I can read between your lines and feel your message, just like listening to a Mahler symphony via one of my LPs.

I really think Mahler would be very happy with your essays about him as a conductor and and composer.

Keep it up young man......

I was a young teenager when I first heard my first Mahler symphony.

Cheers, Long Play Fan...

 

Thus Spoke Collector Man....

Quote Collector Man: The acceptance music lovers give him today, only really started to grow in the late 50's. Before that it was more .."Mahler...who's that?" .

It was 54 years ago in 1958 that I heard my first complete Mahler Symphony via a LP recording.

I knew who Mahler was at that young age, with the help of a Music Librarian who purchased Mahler LPs for his Public Library collection.

Mr. Wolf was responsible in introducing me to Gustav Mahler.

I still remember those by gone days, which also helped me become a Long Play Fan.

Quote: " I however find it highly offensive you (Collector Man) to compare Ms. Michael's perfomance in Kaplan's M2 performance: to a dog barf " end quote.

Collector Man, I know exactly how that sounds...it sounds like that South American Dude trying to conduct a Mahler Symphony with the great LAP. Terrible results.

Cheers, Long Play Fan....

P.S. Collector Man, can you guest what was the Mahler Symphony that I first listen to via a LP recording in 1958?

 

Hea, Professor VanHooser, what's up dude.

I heard that you won 10 CDs last week at your weekly Bingo Game.

How do they sound?

Cheers, Long Play Fan.

 

I'm listening to Mahler's Symphony No. 1 with the Blumine.

Zubin Mehta with the Israel Philharmonic on EMI (Amazon link). I don't actually have much Mahler at all in my collection. It's a stroke of luck that I have a version of the 1st with Blumine give how spotty and sparse my Mahler collection is.

 

First spin of this, another Ward Marston triumph.

 

Re. Mahler as a purist.

He reorchestrated Beethoven's symphonies. I would guess it was an exercise, but for all I know, he may have conducted them. Around five years ago or so, Leonard Slatkin conducted Mahler's orchestration of the 9th and caught a lot of grief. I wouldn't be surprised if it contributed to the non-renewal of his contract as music director of the NSO.

 

Agreed. There are some instances where there is no generally accepted definitive version of a work. I would guess Don Carlos and some of the Bruckner symphonies might fit that category. A more recent example would be Leonard Bernstein's Candide.

But in other instances the revisions of a work have "taken." It is valuable knowing about and listening to recordings of earlier versions to learn of the process the composer reached to achieve his final version, but the superseded movements, orchestration, whatever are not part ofthe work itself.

Brahms, for instance, made substantial revisions to his Piano Trio Op. 8, including replacing a movement. I am glad I have heard the superseded movement, but it is not part of the work.

 

Mahler also touched up the Schumann symphonies. I just ordered this as a companion to my Kubelik set:



This should be interesting.

 

I see Slatkin also got a 'bit of stick' from the MET opera house. It was alleged in some quarters that - though engaged to conduct Verdi's La Traviata - he was caught out...and not 'fully prepared' to do so.

Once when I was an artist's representative,,,I was asked to contact and help engage an certain opera singer for a run -through 'honing process' of some vague new commissioned opera project. Being in another State the artist agreed and was duly sent the manuscript. Just several days before the artist was to arrive, I contacted and checked . To my horror...the artist pleaded they still did not have this highly atonal Score . Perhaps 'lost in post' was the excuse given by the artist.. Another was quickly rushed to them. Then came the next few days...to the actual rehearsals Ouch! I sat there...cringing...watching and listening to the results of musical unpreparation. To a litany of faults - wrong notes, , bad vocal attack, wrong entrances etc. You name it. As you can realize ..the subsequent casting for the public perfomances 'was then changed'. In any case - the ratty badly constructed opera sank like a stone : never heard of, again.

My only consolation that day, was -finally meeting the composer of this excruciating dreck. Through lack of previous proper face /name/ direct contact assocations taking place between all the parties involved (in the negotiations) I now also happened to come to the realization -this pretentious female composer creature and I, had actually crossed sharp verbal swords with each other, at some previous social function around the cultural 'traps'. Result oetic justice was finally at hand ...unintentional of course..what else??!!
I look back and hope in some way, that through my moment of accidential lapse of full attention 'on the ball' together with that equally by others -had a good hand in sending that alleged 'opera' to the bottom of the musical ocean.

 

Given that the 22-dsc Stravinsky: Complete Works set is only $34 from Amazon (or $28.50 including s/h from third-party sellers), isn't that still a better deal?

 

Last night... for a change in speakers, I turned on my big transmission -line speakers, Not a speaker to choose if you do not want 'everything exposed' as to how it was actually recorded. I played Chailly's version of Das Klagende Lied and the other disc on the Decca 'duo' 2 disc set - Ruckert Lieder , Songs of the Wayfarer etc. Chailly certainly knows his Mahler. The set is highly acceptable by any stretch, for both artistry and engineering.
Then I tried Prokofiev's Symphony No 5 from Walter Weller's 4-CD complete Prokofiev Symphony Cycle on Brilliant Classics (licenced from Decca). Within a minute or two of not even checking the box details - I exclaimed " That was recorded in Kingsway Hall." I then checked the details- I was right. That hall's ascoutic magic in all its sonic glory " is still there, contained on it -though the disc is pressed and released on a different label.

 

Only if I wanted the other stuff. A lot of it didn't interest me. The ballet box has the bulk of what I was looking for.

 

When we look at Mahler the person
the fact he was able to create what he did , was extraordinary. Said to have been one of 12 children, with eight dying before ever reaching adulthood. Then as one of 4 members left then two of these left, having tragic ends... leaving just Mahler and another sibling , And Mahler finally knowing he had what was a deteriorating heart condition: this, being....IN the very first decade of the 20th Century! No wonder a lot of his symphonies operate in various moods and states.
Any Mahler 'freakie' (I admit I am also one!) feels sure they has come to their own conclusions what exactly various moments in his works, really represent and mean. Almost as if we are wired and geared to receive and recognise every sound and every gesture, he expressed. Touching upon just about every gamit of human existence. And that...we knew exactly what that emotion was, even the very first time we ever encountered it..in any one of particular Mahler works. Woe beget any conductor -if we come across them : simply conducting 'the notes' - one or two steps back - or removed from showing invested inner personal commitment.

P.S I once heard a broadcast of a live concert Mahler Sym No 7. It only had just started , the brass alone appeared half asleep. I thought " What the ........is going on?". Later I found out the particular orchestra had never ever played it before...and the concert came after only just 2 short rehearsals!

 

My understanding is that they were done so that he could conduct them. So in effect he was modifying the scores written for a late 18th century orchestra/concert hall to suit a late 19th century orchestra/concert hall. Interesting how tastes have changed because something like this was not considered unusual one hundred years ago... Which then begs the question of why it is suitable now to perform the pieces in their original orchestration in modern buildings...???

 

And if you're a Sibelius fan like me it's also interesting to hear the BIS recordings of the original versions of the violin concerto and symphony 5.

 

Interesting. I didn't know that. I only knew about it because of the review in the paper blasting Slatkin for conducting it.

He also got blasted when he conducted from the original. I saw that concert and loved it. He also gave a talk afterwards and explained that had increased tempos based on indications in Beethoven's score that are usually ignored.

I really liked the "After Words" he did periodically. He, soloists, and the the composer, if alive, would give a talk and answer questions after the concert.

 

Chailly used the same tempo markings in his recent Beethoven set.

I have a copy of the Mahler re-orchestration of Beethoven's 9th but have not had a chance to listen to it yet. I am very curious to hear it.

 

Currently listening to Disc 1 of Gunter Wand's set of Beethoven symphonies. Great sound and great performances based on what I've heard so far. I sampled Nos. 1, 3, 5, and 7 on MOG and liked them so much I had to buy a lossless physical copy (which is saying a lot as I'm trying to cut back on CD clutter!). Thanks to George for recommending this a awhile back!

 

My pleasure! Glad you liked it!

 

Some early morning listening.....catching up on more of this @ CD 5.
This $10 MP3 Download was worth every penny!!

 

Strange that classical music fans would get so worked up over that. For me, I'd consider it an opportunity to hear something different that you're not likely to ever get another chance to hear live.

But I can imagine people who are waiting to hear the 9th live. Waiting. It's not a work that get played regularly. You may wait years or a decade or more for your local orchestra to play it. And then when it finally gets played it's the bastardized Mahler version. That'll bring out the pitchforks.

Classical music is serious business.

The Oregon Symphony played the 9th in 2008. I missed it. The Seattle Symphony did it in Dec 2011 and that was too much of a road trip at the time. So I've yet to hear it live. Don't know when I'll get another chance. Hopefully I'll get to hear it live before I die. I just hope I don't have to settle for the Mahler version or I may go to the concert with a pitchfork and a torch.

 

Where did you find the lossless version?