Classical SACD and Conversation

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by layman, Jun 13, 2021.

  1. layman

    layman Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York, NY
    It looks like Stereosound Japan only released the Rach 3 with Janis.
    HRAudio.net - Search

    I have not heard the Stereosound release. Perhaps @yasujiro has. I would like to know about the SQ of that release compared to the older Mercury version.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2022
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  2. hvbias

    hvbias Midrange magic

    Location:
    Northeast
    Thanks! I didn't realize HRAudio was still being updated (IMO I far prefer the older SACD only website), and Discogs isn't always the most complete.
     
  3. layman

    layman Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York, NY
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  4. hvbias

    hvbias Midrange magic

    Location:
    Northeast
    I've now listened to Neumann's second incomplete Mahler cycle with the Czech Phil ~1.5 times all the way through. I'd heard Hurwitz mention them in several of his individual Mahler videos that these performances were superior to the Supraphon cycle, and read the same from some Mahler experts on TalkClassical.

    So far I agree with all of them. The performances, like the Supraphon cycle aren't the wam! smack you in the chest type like Bernstein (especially his NYPO) but they are more like Klemperer in how moving they are. These are absolutely gorgeous performances that I think really speak about the struggle that Mahler was getting at in many of his symphonies that makes his music so universal.

    Stunning reference level sound quality as well, which is a nice bonus. Oh and pressed on green discs, so you know they're going to have that extra bit of juicy sound quality :D

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  5. yasujiro

    yasujiro Senior Member

    Location:
    tokyo
    Just my 2 cents. Stereo Sound uses the 1960s mixes for their Mercury SACDs basically AFAIC. In other words, they are Philips mixes, not Wilma mixes.
     
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  6. hvbias

    hvbias Midrange magic

    Location:
    Northeast
    Aside from these Stereo Sound, was Wilma Cozart Fine involved in remixing all Mercury CD or SACD releases? Mercury usually went to great lengths in the 90s CDs/box set CD booklets to mention Wilma/Robert Fine's involvement.

    I agree with Steve that these mixes sound very good to me, but it will be nice to have the original mixes on digital. The LPs that I have are wonderful. I will order some and report back.

    SACD lovers, do you have Fennell conducts LEROY ANDERSON on Mercury Living Presence?
     
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  7. Kal Rubinson

    Kal Rubinson Senior Member

    Location:
    NYC
  8. yasujiro

    yasujiro Senior Member

    Location:
    tokyo
    Wilma remixed all the Mercury CDs. They are basically new mixes that are different from the original vinyl (from the 1950s and the 1960s) mixes using her original mixer, etc. She also oversaw the all (20 titles) SACDs from UNI.
    There may have been CD issues that have the original mixes from the old vinyl, I'm not sure. But, if any, Wilma was not involved with them at all.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2022
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  9. yasujiro

    yasujiro Senior Member

    Location:
    tokyo
    Edit: Wilma used the same her own mixer to make both the old and the new mixes. That's what I meant.

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  10. hvbias

    hvbias Midrange magic

    Location:
    Northeast
    Do you think any of the Dorati Stereo Sound SACDs are an improvement over the regular CDs or Mercury SACDs?

    For the classical releases I have looked at I see that Stereo Sound's philosophy is basically transfer them flat from the original mix master tapes. I suspect I'll try some of their RCA releases as Bernie Grundman's AP SACD mastering can be a bit heavy handed.
     
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  11. layman

    layman Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York, NY
    1st Listen Bach Complete Suites for Cello, Janos Starker, (4 disc set featuring 2 SACD-only discs and 2-CDs), Originally Mercury, Stereo Sound Japan SACD:
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    Listening to SACD Disc #1 of Starker's Mercury recordings of the Bach Cello Suites from Stereo Sound Japan SACD, I am noticing right away that this is a different mix than the one used for the Mercury SACD version (that I also bought and listened to recently).

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    Being so newly acquainted with both of these releases, I don't feel that I can make a value judgement about which one I prefer (yet) without additional listening. I am not sure which mix that Stereo Sound Japan are using for this SACD release (perhaps @yasujiro can jump in here) but to my ears it sounds quite analog-like...perhaps the master used here was also used to prepare a vinyl release in the past (perhaps it was the Philips release...@yasujiro feel free to jump in with your expertise).

    I am sure, however, that this is not the master used for the Mercury SACD, which sounds distinctly different (mastered at a different dynamic level and sounding cleaner and a touch more modern) than this Stereo Sound Japan SACD version.

    This is an English translation of a quote from Stereo Sound Japan's website about the provenance of this SACD of Starker's Mercury Recording of the Bach Cello Suites:

    "The analog master tapes of "Historical performances and recordings with eternal value" are stored in record companies all over the world. Stereo Sound Co., Ltd. has unearthed a high-quality master tape from among them, and has started the "Audio Masterpiece Collection" that makes full use of the latest technology to finish the "best sound".
     
    This product is a digitized version of the original analog master tape sound with almost no processing. Therefore, as a general rule, not only the ultra-low frequency cut, but also the equalizing to make the sound easier to hear and the noise cut and dropout caused by the master tape are not corrected. This is based on a product plan that wants to deliver the sound of a master tape, which could only be heard by a limited number of people involved in production, to the audio file as faithfully as possible."

    J.S.バッハ:無伴奏チェロ組曲 (全曲) (2SACD + 2CD・4枚組) SSHRS-011〜014
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2022
  12. hvbias

    hvbias Midrange magic

    Location:
    Northeast
    Very nice! This is one of my favorite sets of the JSB Cello Suites as far as performances go. (My go to set of late has been Colin Carr's GM Recordings cycle)

    Tough question but do you think the Stereo Sound release is worth the high premium? This might be a once in a lifetime opportunity to basically get master tape sound (flat transfer of the original mix master).
     
  13. layman

    layman Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York, NY
    Do you already have the Mercury SACD (of the Starker JSB Cello Suites)? If so, then I would say that one may be all you need.

    If you don't have the Mercury SACD then getting the Stereo Sound Japan SACD version is a no-brainer.

    When I ordered the Stereo Sound Japan SACD version, there were no Mercury SACD versions (still) available...then my Stereo Sound Japan order ended up being delayed a month (on the supplier's end). Then lo and behold (as Murphy's Law would have it) a copy of the Mercury SACD (miraculouslly) showed up on E-bay, so I got that first.

    When, I got the Mercury SACD set, I was tremendously happy with it...so much so that I thought about cancelling my Stereo Sound Japan order but before I could cancel, the supplier contacted me and said the discs were in and he would ship them that same day! I laughed out loud and thought that it could not hurt having two SACD versions to compare.

    Now listening to the Stereo Sound Japan SACD version, I agree with that thinking...it's nice having two versions, two different mixes to compare. If you love these recordings like I do, then you will want to have both.
     
  14. layman

    layman Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York, NY
    6th Listen, Brahms Symphony No. 3, and St. Anthony Variations, Bruno Walter & the Los Angeles Philharmonic Orchestra (aka the Columbia Symphony Orchestra West Coast), Indian Summer Stereo Recordings, Disc #3 (of 6), Sony Japan SACD:
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    I love the passion that I hear from Bruno Walter and the Los Angeles Philharmonic in the opening of the 1st movement (Allegro con brio) of Brahms Symphony No. 3. I love the contribution of the Los Angeles woodwinds. The American Legion Hall acoustic sounds very flattering to the L.A. strings as well. I love the opulent (warm, full, blooming, detailed and sweet) sound that the recording engineers have captured. I love the way that Walter and his L.A. players capture the urgent rhythms in this movement. I love the contribution of the L.A. brass. The passion and ardor that I hear in the interpretation sound almost overwhelming and I feel swept up in emotion...I feel like dancing...this kind of emotion and feeling...I don't hear this every day or very often. I love the way that Walter and his Los Angeles Philharmonic players interpret the diminuendo closing of the first movement.

    I love the way that Walter inteprets the (hushed) woodwind dialogue that opens the 2nd movement (Andante). I hear a spiritual quality in the interpretation. I love the way that Walter and his Los Angeles players handle the transition of the music from hushed and spiritual to passionate and heaven storming, then back to spiritual. I hear wonderful tension and expression in the interpretation. I love the way that Walter and his L.A. players bring out the lyricism in the movement. The interpretation sounds intensely romantic.

    I love the way that Walter and his Los Angeles players interpret the songful, Eastern European sounding melodies in the 3rd movement (Poco allegretto). I can hear the influence of Dvorak in this movement. I love the way that the interpretation captures the emotion in the movement. I love the contribution of the Los Angeles woodwinds. I love Maestro Walter's choices of pacing and phrasing. I love the air of melancholy that the interpreters capture. I love the bloom that I hear on the strings.

    I love the intensity of feeling that Maestro Walter and his L.A. players have captured in the opening of the 4th movement (Allegro). I hear tremendous urgency and tension in the interpretation. I love the buzz and bloom of the L.A. strings and the bite and blat of the L.A. brass. I love the way that Walter and his players have captured the rhythms in the movement. I can't help snapping and dancing along to the music. I love the way that Walter and his L.A. players capture the rise and fall in the music, the ebb and flow of emotions. It sounds searing. I love the way that the acoustic of the American Legion Hall flatters the interpretation! The Maestro, the players, the recording engineers, the hall are all working in concert. I love the way that Walter and his L.A. players capture the diminuendo conclusion of the movement. I find this interpretation intensely moving. The interpretation has never been equalled on record!

    This recording of Brahm's Symphony No. 3 was taped January 27 & 30, 1960 in American Legion Hall, Hollywood, California.

    I love the way that Walter and his Los Angeles players capture the geniality in the opening of the St. Anthony Variations. I love the way that Maestro Walter and his players interpret the rhythms in this piece. I love the passion and ardor that I hear in the interpretation. I love the way that Walter and his players capture the lyricism in the piece. I love the bloom that I hear on the instruments, the beautiful acoustic that has been captured in this recording. I love the emotion that I hear in the interpretation.

    This recording of Brahm's St. Anthony Variations was taped January 18 & 27, 1960 in American Legion Hall, Hollywood, California.

    The tape transfer from the original Analog Master Tapes, Mixing and DSD Remastering was done in 2019 by Andreas K. Meyer and Jennifer Nulsen of Swan Studios New York. This SACD recording is now available in a 6-Disc set from Sony Japan or as individual (hybrid) SACD discs from Sony Japan.

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    American Legion Hall, Hollywood, California
     
  15. yasujiro

    yasujiro Senior Member

    Location:
    tokyo
    The two different mixes that Universal and Stereo Sound used respectively are apples and oranges.
    I agree with layman as to which would be chosen,
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2022
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  16. hvbias

    hvbias Midrange magic

    Location:
    Northeast
    A heads up that this 3 SACD/1 DVD set is 15 Euro at JPC: https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/de...-catalogue-des-oiseaux-livre-1-7/hnum/8126217

    I've listened to it twice and it's a phenomenal account of Messiaen's complete Catalogue d'Oiseaux and Pentatone are up there with the best in recording piano. Aimard seems to have a real affinity for Messiaen as he has one of the best cycles of Vingt Regards sur L'enfant Jesus (though my overall favorite might be Steven Osborne, beating out even Loriod).

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    @5-String (unsure if you like Messiaen, but thought I'd tag you anyway)
     
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  17. 5-String

    5-String μηδὲν ἄγαν

    Location:
    Sunshine State
    Thanks, I do like Messiaen, this is a good deal!
    Unfortunately, I haven’t been listening to many sacds recently because I have retired my Sony XA5400ES player and I am too lazy to rip the dsd into the hard drive :hide:
    Maybe I should look for a new sacd player.
     
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  18. layman

    layman Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York, NY
    I can relate! I went on a week long vacation. I could not listen to music but I bought a bunch of new music (mostly SACDs). Now that I am home, I have discovered that the tubes in my Jolida amp are going bad...the soundstage has collapsed and the music quality has gone. I had a box of spare tubes sitting in my listening room but I moved the box about six months ago (to make room for more music) and I can't remember what I did with it!
     
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  19. hvbias

    hvbias Midrange magic

    Location:
    Northeast
    I hear you, my PS3 broke and I was without an SACD ripping machine for many months until I bought an alternative, and the backlog was daunting. The Messiaen set are hybrid discs which is the good news.
     
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  20. layman

    layman Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York, NY
    These are some of the (new) SACD titles that I am waiting to listen to (if anyone knows of a place where I can buy 12AX7 tubes in NYC, I would appreciate knowing about it; otherwise I will have to order more and could be out of listening commission for at least a week):

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  21. rbholbrook

    rbholbrook Forum Resident

    Location:
    Washington DC area
    Hi - could you post links to where you got the 1st 2 from? CD Japan?
     
  22. layman

    layman Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York, NY
    Sure:
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    Amazon Seller (you will have to search Amazon).

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    Ebay Seller (I see a lot of other copies for sale currently on Ebay).
     
  23. layman

    layman Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York, NY
    I am back (in music listening) business...at least for the moment.

    I hauled out my 50 lbs back up amp (my arms and chest are killing me) but...I still hear some issues (static and noisiness...I now suspect result from a new recording of Beethoven Piano Sonatas...the soundstage and normal gain levels have reappeared though...indicating that I did have some bad 12AX7 tubes in the previous amp).

    I suspect that I may have had a couple of issues superimposed on top of one another. I will have to do some more listening and experimenting to sort them all out.
     
  24. layman

    layman Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York, NY
    1st Listen Frederick Fennell conducts the music of Leroy Anderson, the Eastman-Rochester "Pops" Orchestra, Mercury Living Presence, Universal Hybrid Multi-Channel SACD:
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    Thank you @hvbias for recommending this! After you discussed it in the thread, I was first, surprised to discover that I did not already have it and two, surprised to discover copies still available for sale from various sellers.

    The first piece, the "Belle of the Ball, sounds like a spirited dance with a quasi-Waltz, quasi-Polka appeal. As usual with Mercury SACDs, I like the way this SACD recording sounds. I can hear the faint tape hiss in the background that gives away this recordings analog origins. The recording sounds warm and analog-like and also captures a great deal of the brilliance and transient quality that mark the original performance.

    The next piece, "Horse & Buggy" seems a tongue in cheek bit of "Americana." I like the clip, clap of the horses, the snappy rhythms and the snappy transients. I hear a polka rhythm in this piece.

    The "Waltzing Cat" sounds like a classic Straussian Waltz. The rhythm sounds infectious. I want to get up and dance. I love all the sound effects and lollipops. I love the way that Frederick Fennell brings out the humor in the piece.

    I love the Spanish rhythm that I hear in "Blue Tango." I also love the (winking) humor and irreverence that I hear in the interpretation. This piece makes me want to dance!

    I love the way that Fennell and his Eastman-Rochester players bring out the sense of romance and nostalgia that I hear in "Summer Skies. I love the beauty of sound and sense of fun that I hear from the Eastman-Rochester woodwinds. The Eastman-Rochester strings sounds luscious and sweet. It's a sound that Karajan would be proud of!

    I love the sense of fun that I hear in the interpretation of "Song of the Bells." I love the way that bells are incorporated into the piece. I love the snappy rhythms that I hear in this piece. I hear a waltz rhythm that underlies the piece.

    I love the humor and sass that I hear in Fennell's interpretation of the "Typewriter." I have never heard a typewriter sound more musical or irreverent! I am dancing along to the music of the typewriter! I hear a lovely bloom on the Eastman-Rochester strings.

    I love the polka rhythm that I hear in "Syncopated Clock." I love the way that Frederick Fennell brings out the sense of humor and mischief in his interpretation of this piece. I can't help but to dance along to the music in my seat!

    I love the drama and romance that I hear in Fennell's interpretation of the "Girl in Satin." I can't help but think of Rita Hayworth as "Gilda." Fennell's interpretation captures a quality of glamour and (expensive) perfume. I love the sound of the snappy rhythms that underlie the piece.

    I like the way that Fennell brings out a sense of fun in "China Doll." I like the quasi-Eastern sounding melodies in the piece. I hear a sense of irreverence in the interpretation.

    I like the snappy rhythms that I hear in "Saraband." I like the qualities of charm and romance that I hear in the interpretation of this piece. I love the sparkle and sense of fun that I hear from the Eastman-Rochester percussion section.

    I love the sense of fun that I hear in Fennell's interpretation of "Fiddle-Faddle." I love the way that he and his Eastman-Rochester players bring out the snappy rhythms and the irreverence in this piece.

    I recognize "Sleigh Ride" from countless Christmas Albums. I did not know that this was a Leroy Anderson piece. I love the sense of romance and fun that I hear in the interpretation. I love the way that Fennell and his Eastman-Rochester players bring out a jazzy quality in the interpretation. I hear so much charm and sparkle in this interpretation!

    I love the drama that I hear Fennell's interpretation of "Serenata." I love the way that he and his Eastman-Rochester players bring out the Spanish Gypsy rhythms in this piece. I can't help but to dance along to the music in my seat! I can imagine elegant ladies in cocktail dresses getting down to this music! I hear a great deal of soul, sass and sultriness in the interpretation! I love the use of the maracas and castanets.

    I love the way that the Eastman-Rochester players interpret the snappy rhythms in "Promenade." I love the contribution of the Eastman-Rochester brass players in this piece. I dare anyone to sit still while listening to this interpretation of the piece! I can't. I am bopping and popping along with the music.

    I love the sense of drama and fun that I hear in Fennell's interpretation of "Chicken Reel." I love the beautiful sound that I hear from the Eastman-Rochester players (captured in spectacular fashion by the recording engineers). Once again, I can't help thinking that Karajan (who cared about the way his recordings sounded) would approve. I love the sense of sass and fun that hear in the interpretation of this piece!

    I love the way that Fennell and his Eastman-Rochester players bring out the martial rhythms in "Phantom Regiment." I love the drama that I hear in the interpretation. I also love the sense of fun and mischief that Fennell and his Eastman-Rochester players bring out in the piece.

    I love the syncopated rhythms that Fennell and his players bring out in "Jazz Legato." I love the sass and irreverence that I hear in the interpretation. I can't help but to smile broadly and dance while listening to this interpretation!

    I love the sense humor and fun that Fennell and his players bring out in "Jazz Pizzicato." I love the snappy rhythms and the charm and sass that the players bring out in this piece.

    I love the snappy rhythms that Fennell and his players bring out in "Plink, Plank, Plunk." I love the humor and sass that I hear in the interpretation. I can't help but to clap along with the music!

    I love the charm and nostalgia that I hear in Fennell's interpretation of the "Bluebells of Scotland."

    I love the drama and romance that I hear in Fennell's interpretation of the "First Day of Spring." I love the contribution of the solo horn player. The horn solo brings out a sense of Viennese nostalgia, as do the waltz rhythms that underlie the piece. I love the contribution of the Eastman-Rochester percussion players. How delightful!

    I love the trumpet solo in "Song of Jupiter." I love the gorgeous, sumptuous sound that the recording engineers have captured! The Fines and the Mercury Living Presence team really, really knew what they were doing! I love the sense of romance and nostalgia that I hear in the interpretation. I also love the sense of nobility, occasion, pomp and circumstance.

    @hvbias I cannot thank you enough for recommending this recording! It's quite a treasure!
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2022
  25. yasujiro

    yasujiro Senior Member

    Location:
    tokyo
    This is one of the loveliest SACDs ever made.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2022
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