DACs recommendations for 3D soundstage

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Harris11235, Apr 11, 2021.

  1. Francois1968

    Francois1968 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Netherlands
    I must admit that I am really impressed by the Rega DAC-R. This little fellow is out of production and can only be found NOS or used. It did cost 900 Euro new, and I managed to buy a demo model for 550. To my ears this DAC offers a tremendous amount of value for money. It does manage to deliver a transparent 3D sound stage, it's s transparent showing macro and micro details. The Rega sound characteristics of the brand's turntables is resembled in this DAC.
     
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  2. tIANcI

    tIANcI Wondering when the hifi madness will end

    Location:
    Malaysia
    Matrix Audio X Sabre or Chord Hugo TT2. For me the X Sabre trumps the RME ADI2 FS and even a Mytek Brooklyn Bridge.
     
  3. bever70

    bever70 Let No-one Live Rent Free in Your Head!

    Location:
    Belgium
    Denafrips are beautifully aranged and engineered on the inside ! I have an ares II.
    I have a few other delta sigma dacs as well (and had others which have been sold off). None of them could compare to the 3D imaging of this humble R2R dac.
     
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  4. gestalt

    gestalt Forum Resident

    Location:
    Nashville, TN
    Happy to send you a Gold Note DS-10 to audition. It's great.
     
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  5. rockin_since_58

    rockin_since_58 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Simi Valley, CA
    I also wanted to purchase a Yiggy but is not in stock. I previously had the Schiit Bifrost 2. After reading through the Denafrips DAC's thread completely, I chose to purchase the Ares 2 which is the bottom of the line. However, the Ares 2 was better in every way compared to the Bifrost 2. Much better soundstage, frequency response and overall punch. If you move up the line, it will only get better from many have posted in the thread. I was a bit concerned about purchasing from outside the USA but seeing the distributors participation in the thread made me feel comfortable with the decision. The unit arrived quickly via Fedex and I couldn't be happier with the whole process.
     
  6. Harris11235

    Harris11235 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Minneapolis, MN
    This looks like some serious hardware - real endgame stuff. I'll do some reading on it. It's all above my pay grade unless I find an incredible deal for a used model.
     
  7. Harris11235

    Harris11235 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Minneapolis, MN
    I love this place. All of you are are being incredibly helpful. Thank you for introducing me to hardware that will achieve my goals and challenging my (clearly wrong) assumptions about it. You've all peaked my interest in Denafrips. My only hesitation is that I can't audition it alongside the others, and returns are out of the question.

    Your comparison of the Denafrips, the Yggy and the Qutest was especially useful, thank you. Your comment about the Convert-2 is a good description of what I'm hearing from the RME. It's a damn good sounding DAC, no question. Playing with the filters and loudness helped dial in a more preferable sound too. But, I know what soundstage I can achieve with my gear and speaker placement, and it's just not getting me all the way there. The lunatic's laugh on Eclipse was placed almost where it should be, though (behind you). If I set my fixation on the 3D soundstage aside, there's so much quality and configurability here that it would be silly for me not to keep it. Thanks also for the comment on the Denafrips build quality - that's encouraging.

    The comparison of the Qutest and Pontus is great, thanks. I'm not hearing much about the Qutest that's drawing me in that direction. Sounds like you came to the same conclusion from your experience.

    I really liked the line from your review, "Not only is there more inner detail, but it’s a much easier kind of detail, the kind of detail that unravels to the listener naturally, not the kind that is shoved in your face obnoxiously." THAT sounds exactly like what I tried, but you achieved, to describe. Thank you. Your purchase of the unit after your experience with so many DACs speaks volumes.

    Thank you - this is further confirmation of all of the points above.
     
  8. Drew769

    Drew769 Buyer of s*** I never knew I lacked

    Location:
    NJ
    According to Meitner himself, he had pioneered 1 bit digital technology with and for Phillips, and then Sony called him to invite him to participate in the development of the SACD. 5:24 in the linked video.

     
  9. Drew769

    Drew769 Buyer of s*** I never knew I lacked

    Location:
    NJ
    Another DAC well worth mentioning is the Lampizator Amber 3 (or Amber 2.2 if buying used). These are really terrific DACs and have a very holographic presentation, aided in no small part by its vacuum tubes. It’s not “tubey” though, in that the sound is not overly warm or less defined - it has amazing definition especially when listened to on good headphones. It’s DSD capable (128) and handles PCM to at least 192/24. Hand built by in Poland. I had one for a couple of years, and it’s a heck of bargain. They incorporate the same digital engine as their top of the line Dacs that cost almost $30k, I think the Amber was $2400. IMO, that DAC is a lot more musical than anything else I heard close to its price. You might even be able to grab a pre owned one from Lampizator directly as they have a very generous Step Up program that a lot of people take advantage of.

    Sorry for adding to your list of considerations! Lol
     
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  10. Harris11235

    Harris11235 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Minneapolis, MN
    PM Sent
     
  11. Harris11235

    Harris11235 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Minneapolis, MN
    I'm very interested in a Denafrips DAC after all of the suggestions I received here. I'm looking at a Pontus II or a Venus II as a potential solution. I read this review from Poland about the Venus II, and this statement stood out to me:

    "...the Denafrips converter is perfect in what it does. It offers beautiful colors and great resolution. However, it is not very selective and has no clearly defined bass attack. Space for it is only a background for instruments that are large, firm and tangible. So it's a specialized product. Powerful rock, country, rap, hip-hop - all these recordings will be smoothed and sound "polite". But all the rest will sound great." (Emphasis from article)
    1) Is that true by your experience?
    2) Is the Pontus less "polite" than the Venus? E.g. - can it hit harder with rock and rap?

    I don't want Killer Mike or Mike Ness to sound polite.
     
  12. Calvin_and_Hobbes

    Calvin_and_Hobbes Music Lover

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    The comparison of the Qutest and Pontus is great, thanks. I'm not hearing much about the Qutest that's drawing me in that direction. Sounds like you came to the same conclusion from your experience.[/QUOTE]

    The only reason I think someone would gravitate to the Qutest is that they are seeking a sound quality that is harder edged and might be perceived as more precise. Don't get me wrong. It is a very good sounding DAC in general. It's just that the Pontus is both more natural sounding and more resolving than the Qutest. If you can get a listen to a Qutest, I think it's worth doing so as a sonic benchmark because so many people are familiar with the Qutest's sound. It's a good reference point for describing the sound of other DACs
     
  13. RockAddict

    RockAddict Sanity is an illusion, just like democracy

    Location:
    UK
    Although in only it's second page, this thread is already one of the most helpful I can recall. It's helped to narrow down my DAC search to a sensible shortlist, taking into account the very factor framed by the OP @Harris11235 - 3D soundstage. Budget means these are the realistic options:

    - Denafrips Pontus II
    - Gustard X26 PRO

    The DAC will be for use with a Bluesound Node 2i.

    Hopefully, @timind will be able to share his experiences of the Gustard X26 PRO in a few weeks.
     
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  14. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    To my knowledge (and I used to work at the Philips Natlab in Eindhoven), Meitner was not part of the team that developed Bitstream technology. He was an early adopter of the technology using the DAC7 (TDA1547) in some of his DAC products (and he seems to suggest that he was doing early implementations using the first Philips Bitstream chips). His name does not appear on any of the Philips papers in the IEEE, etc. on Bitstream technology from that time (late 80s). My former colleague, Carel Dijkmans, however was heavily involved in the development of Bitstream, and he would go on to lead the Philips side with regard to DSD signal development.

    Similarly, Meitner was not part of the SACD project until 1998 by which time Philips and Sony had fully developed both DSD and the SACD technical specifications. He was brought in by David Kawakami (head of the SACD Project in the US) at the suggestion of Tom Jung, who was not happy with the sound quality of the converters made by Sony Japan. So, Meitner set about making ADCs and DACs which were much better sounding, and which helped enormously in the adoption/acceptance of DSD by the Pro community. He also developed the Switchman pre-amp which was used at virtually all SACD demos from mid-'98 on.

    I'm not trying to downplay his contribution, as DSD/SACD was all about sound-quality and his converters certainly helped to deliver in that regard, but Philips and Sony had tons of engineers (including me from Jan. '96) working on all aspects of the technology and published the SACD technical specifications before his involvement began.
     
  15. jenkovix

    jenkovix Forum Resident

    Location:
    Europe, Hungary
    ANK 3.1 upgraded from stock here. wonderful 3D soundstage!
     
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  16. bhazen

    bhazen ANNOYING BEATLES FAN

    Location:
    Deepest suburbia
    dCS ...
     
  17. CN211276

    CN211276 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cardiff, UK
    I have a Mojo and Qutest. The sound signature is similar but the Qutest has a more accurate tonal balance. The Chord sound signature is to my taste. The addition of the Mscaler has taken the Qutest to a completely different level, but it is expensive.
     
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  18. timind

    timind phorum rezident

    You mentioned a problem with the no-return policy. Understandable, but you can sell these dacs with almost zero loss on the used market. A couple weeks ago I saw a Pontus for sale on USAudiomart which was priced $50 off new. I contacted the seller within 5 hours of listing and it was sold. You may not be able to return the dac, but you won't lose money on it.
     
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  19. fish

    fish Senior Member

    Location:
    NYS, USA
    Anything From Ayre!
    They are rather pricey but older used units are still incredible and the upgrade paths are Very reasonably priced.
    These are world class Audiophile products. Hard to beat at any price.

    DIGITAL Archives | Ayre



    Also you can Never go wrong with Wyred 4 Sound
    Wyred 4 Sound
    Again, the upgrade paths are very reasonable.

    Upgrade paths I believe are Very important! You are not stuck with an old uint. At any time you can have your unit upgraded to whatever spec you want at a fraction of the cost of a new product.

    PS Audio as well!

    Some of the best sounding units and they are Made in the USA! Thats very important to me.
    Americans and Europeans NEED to slow down on buying from Asia. Simple as that! Just Stop!!
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2021
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  20. Khorn

    Khorn Dynagrunt Obversarian

    All I can say is listen to the thing if you get the chance. You might be very pleasantly surprised. I certainly was.
     
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  21. RockAddict

    RockAddict Sanity is an illusion, just like democracy

    Location:
    UK
    The problem is this. Whilst care is undoubtedly needed to avoid junk goods, some of the best sounding units are currently made in China AND, like it or not, $ for $, £ for £, € for €, are sometimes substantially cheaper. Some of the Chinese sources have also been around for long enough to show there is sufficient reliability to take most of the worry out of whether warranties are practicable or usable. To bring this post closer to the topic, the DACS on my shortlist aren't there because they're made in China; it's because they appear to be stellar pieces of kit that seemingly provide what I'm looking for AND, despite looking, where there truly isn't a (reasonably) comparable equivalent even close to the same price point from either the UK or the USA (allowing for shipping / duty / taxes etc). If the price differences were, say, + or - 10%, maybe that would make it worthwhile but the differences are often significantly greater.

    If there are UK / USA cost vs quality equivalents for the Denafrips Pontus II, the Gustard X26 PRO and even the Singxer SDA-6 in the UK or USA, I'd be delighted to consider them - especially in the context of the 3D soundstage referred to by the OP. But, having scoured dozens of articles, reviews and forum threads, it's notable that time and time again a UK or USA product is referred to as being "...very good but [explanation]... beaten by the [insert ChiFi product]". Sad, but often true.

    Anyway, here's to the lottery numbers to make the Denafrips Terminator Plus the easiest indulgence sensible purchase ever :).
     
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  22. fish

    fish Senior Member

    Location:
    NYS, USA
    For me its NOT about who's is better (and I dont personally believe in Chinese quality), its about supporting your Local economy! Im sorry and im not going to open up this discussion here but Id rather pay more monty (and I DO!) for something that supports MY local economy first and secondly the "western worlds" economy. I actually look into how much anything I buy impacts people around me.
    Thats why I stopped buying American Cars, because Japanese Cars are more supportive to Americans than GM or Ford. And German SUVs are made in America while GM's are mostly made in Mexico and so on and so on...
    I Dont shop at Walmart! Haven't in many years. I selectively shop on Amazon and I DONT order things from China. I also research where things come from and I try my best to avoid China sourced product. its NOT always possible but I TRY AND TRY!
    I wish Apple would start manufacturing here in North America. Id be willing to pay 30 or 40 % more just for that!
    Im not a fan of the Chinese government, never was and never will be!

    F Denafrips! I'll find something made in North America or Europe And isn't 90% part sourced from China. Its possible and Honestly some of the BEST Sounding Audio has always come from America, Europe and Japan. I dont need to support anyone else and won't to the best of my ability.

    Okay, No more on that here. Rant over.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2021
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  23. Khorn

    Khorn Dynagrunt Obversarian

    Stand by you’re friends.
     
  24. Doctor Fine

    Doctor Fine "So Hip It Would Blister Your Brain"

    Comparing the ARES has been interesting and I will write up a complete overview of mine for the Denafrips thread at some point.

    I have a new Pontus II coming this week and was waiting for it before writing my review of Denafrips two lowest priced offerings.
    I have gone to a lot of trouble to rig test leads (balanced and unbalanced plus SPDIF) so that a flip of a switch lets me run things for instant sound checks.

    The reason I am jumping in here is to point out what kind of soundfield I get with the ARES as that topic is coming up over and over.
    So far I have five other well reviewed DACs running against mine including a Bryston which costs three times its price.
    Some of you guys are talking about buying one right NOW and if the soundfield is all you care about let me tell you how mine works as I have a pretty good handle on it at this point.

    My far field system is scaled in the far field.
    I use mid sized Harbeth monitors in a rather large room which definitely places the soundfield farther away than a giant speaker would do it.
    Which is EXACTLY what I wanted.

    To listen like at a concert at Carnegie---sitting in a box seat at the rear of the auditorium and getting the "BIG picture" from a far distance.
    I HAVE Nearfield and midfield setups too---but the different perspective was a desire of mine from way back.
    I just dig the "scale" of far-fielding.
    So when I comment on soundfields---I THINK I am giving you guys the straight scoop.
    To my mind it takes a big far away setup to really dive in deeply to soundfield effects.
    And I have that part down to a TEE.

    The ARES is many things BUT it is not real strong in "the big picture at a distance".
    It is like sitting in row three at the show.
    Loud and Big and in your face clear.
    I could go on and on about how wonderful it is to hear the beautiful tone coming off of it.
    But IF you judge it ONLY on soundfielding 3D it is NOT the most impressive thing ever made.

    Compared to my Bryston DAC which is quite a bit more expensive and uses dual mono, dual Cirrus DAC chips and so forth---the ARES does not place things in a solid shape or clearly delineated space.
    Everything is huge and big and sweet and musical and engaging.
    But NOT the last word in a tight soundfield.

    I am hoping the Pontus kicks its ass in that department.
    Not that I mind the imaging coming off the ARES.
    It is DIFFERENT.
    It is very cool to sit up front and have the musicians breathing on you.
    But I fully intend to keep BOTH the Pontus and the old Bryston running simultaneously when I am done.
    I will be HAPPY if both wind up having diametrically opposed opposite soundfields.

    It will be a gas to choose whether I want a dry presentation with 3D OR a wet romantic more upfront presentation that is a bit loose sounding.
    I will be very happy if the Pontus is like the ARES but perhaps better in how tight it shows the soundfield.
    I am betting my Bryston will still be tighter because so far nothing has been as tight as that DAC at placing things in 3D.
    The ARES SOUNDS better, but the Bryston WORKS better (at three times the price of the ARES).

    My feeling at this point is the ARES is one heck of an expensive sounding DAC that would perform at its best in either a Nearfield desktop monitoring setup or with headphones.
    In either of those scenarios its somewhat loose presentation would not even be noticed.

    But out in a big room with lots of space to work with---it comes up a bit short as an image killer.
    It sounds quite BIG and of course it sounds WONDERFUL and in TECHNICOLOR.
    But as an entry level piece it would be a bit much if it could outperform high end DACs costing three times its price, now wouldn't it?

    More bloviating to follow.
    Just thought I better jump now while you guys are considering what to buy and why.
    The Doctor.
     
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  25. Harris11235

    Harris11235 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Minneapolis, MN
    Thanks all - more substantive responses to follow.

    There are some pretty significant real-life distractions in my city at the moment.

    The Benchmark arrives on Thursday. Stay tuned.
     
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