Dave Clark Five "Facts"

I read the article in the link. If Ron Ryan wrote at least several of the songs, but Dave Clark 'assumed' credit as the article implies, why was Mike Smith given co-writing credits in many cases? I'm also unclear why someone (Ron Ryan, presumably) would bring good songs to a band that they are just "friends" with, without copyrighting them first...doesn't pass the smell test for me, or else this Ron Ryan is missing a few marbles upstairs. Making the mistake with ONE song is one thing, but multiple times just doesn't make sense.

 

The really sad reality is that Mike Smith, one of the great British Invasion singers, was largely forgotten because of Clark's insecure, self-promoting dickishness. Smith was like Teddy Pendergrass in Harold Melvin & The Bluenotes, or Stevie Winwood in the Spencer Davis Group. Maybe Clark was like John Mayall - the second most interesting guy in his own band. Anyway: no Mike Smith, no Dave Clark.

Also: just happened across this video. Couldn't have helped in their competition w The Beatles...

 

Psssst...thank Joe Meek for that.

 

That was a massive show over here. The hottest ticket in Theatre Land for quite some time.

Famous for it's hologram of Laurence Olivier's head, if I remember correctly.

 

As long as we're piling on Dave Clark (deservedly so), I have to add this additional observation I've made before.

Many years ago, Max Weinberg interviewed Clark for his book The Big Beat: Conversations with Rock's Greatest Drummers

Though I'm a guitarist, not a drummer, I found the book very interesting. In including Dave Clark among the many greats he interviewed for his book, Max was motivated by his genuine admiration for the drumming on DC5 records. And at that time, the story of Bobby Graham being the actual drummer on those records was not generally known.

Clark spent a lot more time in the interview talking about the production and business aspects of the DC5 than he did drumming. But at one point, Max asked him point-blank (I'm paraphrasing here) "How did you do that thing in 'Bits and Pieces' where the snare comes in a half a beat later when the snare part starts after the bass drum hits?"

Clark answered as if he was the one who did this. And because of that, for a long time I fought against the notion that the Graham story could possibly be true — because I couldn't believe that anyone could blatantly lie to an interviewer the way Clark actually did here and elsewhere in this book.

Of course, I had to ultimately change my tune due to the preponderance of the evidence. But this is one of the dirtier rock star stories out there.

 

I honestly don't know if I had ever heard of it before this morning

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but did Graham claim credit for this drum 'effect'(described on the bolded text of your post) on Bits and Pieces, or could Dave have come up with it and directed Graham to play it this way?

 

As I said earlier, we'll probably never know to what extent Clark was responsible for the overall sound of the drums on DC5 records, even though he didn't play them personally. It's fair to say that Graham played on many other sessions, but that none of them had drum parts that were quite as prominent as the ones on DC5 records (though "All Day and All of the Night" comes pretty close). So it's possible Clark deserves some credit.

I think the bit Max was referring to was more of a curiosity, perhaps just a slightly muffed part, rather than something that Graham did intentionally or Clark directed.

 

This is a fair point. Here are a couple of explanations that may help to answer some of your questions:

1. it's not like there was a "How To" manual for budding songwriters in the early '60s. It's likely that Ryan was unfamiliar with the legal requirements for copyrighting a song.

2. the songwriting royalty was extremely small back then (just 2 cents per record, if I recall correctly -- which Ryan would have had to share with his co-writers as well as the publishing company). That's one of the reasons why many bands from the early '60s didn't even bother to try to write their own material -- there just wasn't any money in it.

Even after writing 4-5 smash hits, the songwriting royalties wouldn't have been that high -- and Clark could have easily placated Ryan with some cash. (Which is supposedly what happened.)

Anyway, I would agree that Ryan's story sounds a bit fishy -- except for the fact that some of his bandmates have spoken up in his defense. When you combine that with the fact that Clark faked his drumming, then I'm inclined to believe that Clark probably also faked his songwriting.

 

To be fair then, to Dave Clark, perhaps you should back off saying that Dave would "blatantly lie" to Max in the interview when that is not established as fact.

 

Bobby told me that Dave instructed him to come up with "loud" and "simple" patterns, so that Dave could easily replicate them on stage. So, perhaps Graham came up with the 'effect', although he was inspired by a directive laid out by Clark.

At any rate, if you listen to what Graham was doing on all those thousands of sessions for Pye and Decca in the early '60s, you can definitely hear a similarity with the Dave Clark records.

 

Yes, some amazing stomps came from Holloway Road. Hmm I might start a stomping thread...

 

How so? I don't know of any source that says Dave Clark drummed on "Bits and Pieces," but there are many that say Bobby Graham did.

So if Clark answers a question about the drumming on "Bits and Pieces" in such a way as to make it sound like he performed it, how is that not a blatant lie?

 

Exactly. As I've said before, Dave Clark is basically the answer to the question "what if Allen Klein had been a member of the Stones instead of just their manager?" Dave's only significant talents appear to have been in the realms of negotiation and talent spotting. He knew how to hire the right people and get the best deal for himself.

 

Sadly, Bobby Graham passed away in 2009. He wrote a great autobiography, the Session Man, which, as a big DC5 fan, I bought to try to get some answers. Britain had the same under the radar session musician system as the Wrecking Crew in LA. Jimmy Page and John Paul Jones are but two graduates. Unfortunately, the book is out of print.

 

I'm seeing a lot of "I'm inclined to believe", "unlikely", "A lot has been said", "I think", or an "observation" etc. in this thread, but not too many actual facts.

 

Why did the Stones sign with Allen Klein? Why did three of the Beatles sign with him too, despite being warned by Jagger? Why did Moby Grape sign with Matthew Katz, despite being warned by the Airplane? Why did Badfinger make the business decisions they did? Why did Buddy Holly allow Norman Petty to put his name on the credits of songs he had nothing to do with writing? Artists (particularly young ones) are often naive about business and easily exploited. I assume at the time Clark made Ryan promises and Ryan naively believed them.

 

But you also say the effect could have been a "slightly muffed part" plus it's NOT known that Dave did not direct Graham to play it that way, so it's possible Dave was not lying, yet that is what you maintain.

 

There are no "actual facts" which confirm that Dave Clark ever played the drums on a DC5 session.

But there are multiple eyewitnesses who have testified that Bobby Graham played drums on DC5 sessions.

 

No proof to that, correct (your text bolded)? Did Ryan sign a contract with DC like the examples you provide? If not it's conjecture

 

Show me my post where I state the things you are claiming I said...or where I denied that Graham played on the records. Please.

 

Astute businessman that he is, Dave Clark bought up the video rights to old editions of the cult 1960s UK TV show "Ready Steady Go" before anyone else was really interested in such retro stuff. Then when these programmes were shown on Channel 4 in the 1980's, unconnected clips of The Dave Clark Five, (complete with edited-in, fanatical audience shots filmed at other bands' concerts), were slotted into the original programmes, when in fact, I don't think The Dave Clark Five ever appeared on the original series. It caused a lot of amusement around the music scene at the time.

 

They appeared on the show many times but only a small faction of the episodes survived by the time Dave got a hold of them.