Defend the Indefensible: "Sometime in New York City"

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Driver 8, Jul 15, 2005.

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  1. Sean Keane

    Sean Keane Pre-Mono record collector In Memoriam

    The interesting thing about Woman Is The ****** Of The World is that it begins like he's crooning. Except for when it gets loud, it's like a Dean Martin kind of melody.
     
  2. John Carsell

    John Carsell Forum Resident

    Location:
    Northwest Illinois
    If Lennon had only come to his senses and.......

    1. Got rid of all the radical and political lyrics and replaced them with some decent lyrics.

    2. Got rid of all of Yoko's material.

    3. Just kept "Cold Turkey" and "Well (Baby Please Don't Go) and mixed out Yoko's contributions on the "Live Jam" LP.

    Maybe it wouldn't have been such a bad album.

    "Some Time" is certainly the toughest Lennon LP to digest, even though I can listen to it every now and then, but at least later on he admitted his mistake. He said "I'm basically a poet not a journalist and the radicalism was phoney." He also washed his hands of all the hangers on associated with STINYC, Abbie Hoffman, Jerry Rubin, David Peel and the Elephants Memory Band were all cast by the wayside by 1973.
     
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  3. toptentwist

    toptentwist Forum Resident

    Location:
    Houston, TX

    I was semi-famous (in a small circle of friends) for constantly pulling out the
    Zappa side of the set and playing it at parties...

    The stage announcements are great fun :)

    "Ok - anyone who comes to the Fillmore East
    can sing this song - the name of the song is SCUMBAG"

    It was only recently (in the last few years) that I became aware of
    the separate Zappa mix of the same material... and somewhere I
    have a copy of the "video mix" that is more complete than either
    official mix...

    Back when I used to play the Zappa side at parties, a friend kept
    remarking that I "needed to buy" the Mothers at The Fillmore album.

    I resisted - for many years... and I'm not sure why... Its a LOT
    of fun - and basically required listening if you enjoy the Zappa
    side of the NYC album...

    Additional material from the same Fillmore concerts is also on
    Zappa's "Playground Psychotics"... specifically - the Fillmore
    version of "Billy The Mountain" is great fun... tis a pity
    Lennon wasn't on stage for that bit of lunacy as well...

    I'm real curious if anyone knows the set lists from those
    gigs at the Fillmore... or even anything close to approximating
    the set lists.... I've tried compiling all of the performances
    from various sources onto a set of CD-Rs but my compilation
    is just a guess about the sequence...

    I believe Frank did an early show and a late show - for two nights.

    So that's four sets... I imagine that he played "Mud Shark"
    or "Billy The Mountain" (but not both - because of time contraints)
    during each of the four sets... and I'm real curious when John
    and Yoko joined Frank... I'm thinking probably the late set
    for one of the two nights... presumeably during an encore.


    For the record - if you try to compile the Zappa/Fillmore material
    you need the original vinyl Mothers LP (the CD deletes one song),
    a Zappa b-side, Playground Psychotics, one of the "You Cant
    Do That On Stage" volumes (I forget which one off right now),
    the Lennon NYC album, and if your really dedicated the bootleg
    mix that was never released properly...
     
  4. JWB

    JWB New Member

    For some reason, there is a lot of mystery around those Fillmore shows. No setlists or bootlegs exist, save for the encore w/ Lennon. Two "official bootlegs" came out that were labeled "Fillmore 71" but they were actually recorded a year earlier. (The 1970 shows, for some reason, are very well documented - but the 71 shows - practically nothing!)
     
  5. Stateless

    Stateless New Member

    Location:
    USA
    I always like Kreen-Akore. :D BTW, is Paul doing a Yoko impersonation towards the end of the tune?

    As for SINYC, it's definitely among my least favorite solo Beatle records but there are still a few tunes that I like such as:

    Woman Is The...Very Powerful IMO
    New York City...Kind of an updated Ballad of J & Y lyrically...great tune.
    John Sinclair...great dobro by John...always thought this song was pretty clever.

    Luck Of The Irish & Attica State are OK but a bit heavy handed...Sisters O Sisters is a pretty good Yoko track as well. As for the rest of the studio stuff... :shake:

    The live record has some cool stuff on it. I think Well is fantastic. John's vocal is great as is Zappa's guitar...great groove. Cold Turkey & Don't Worry Kyoko are pretty powerful too.

    If they reissued SINYC with bonus tracks like J & Y at the Apollo or some demos from the period that would be nice to balance out some of the dross. :winkgrin: Also, Power To People & Do The Oz would probably be better suited as bonus tracks to this album rather than the POB record...at least thematically. They are an awful fit on POB IMO.

    The album cover is great on SINYC too.
     
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  6. Paul G

    Paul G Senior Member

    Location:
    New York, NY, USA
    "Right on, brothers and sisters, let's hear it for the SCUMBAG!" :laugh:

    Paul G.
     
  7. rjp

    rjp Senior Member

    Location:
    Ohio
    for me, "sometime in NYC" is indefensible.

    renny
     
  8. Great Deceiver

    Great Deceiver Active Member

    Location:
    New Jersey
    JWB: then how come according to allmusic on Shaved fish it is 4:38 and on Sometime in NYC it is 5:16? What is missing in those 38 seconds? :confused:
     
  9. Driver 8

    Driver 8 Senior Member Thread Starter

    You might not believe this, but last night John Sinclair came into the bar where I work in Water Valley, Mississippi. God's honest truth.
     
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  10. Uncle Al

    Uncle Al Senior Member

    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Zappa released an official bootleg called "Freaks and Motherfu*#@%!", which - up until you mentioned it - I always ASSUMED was from '71, but it is labeled as being from from '70.

    I find the only palatable part of STINYC as being the Fillmore Live side, Cold Turkey live (just the size of the band and all that feedback - it sounds like a Phil Spector production just chugging along). One the studio side, I only listen to John Sinclair and NYC. Haven't played anything else for over 20 years - and as I still remember all of the songs - have no desire to.

    P.S. - I still have never listened to any post STINYC Lennon album all the way through (except for Rock n' Roll, which I did buy back in the day). Do you think that album left a bad taste in my mouth? I never bothered to buy Mind Games or Walls and Bridges because of it. After this - Lennon became a singles act to me.
     
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  11. brainwashed

    brainwashed Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Boston, MA
    I believe they edited out a verse and another sax solo. Sometime is a BAD album, by anyone's standard's....purile lyrics, really mediocre backing (Elephant's Memory was the epitomy of mediocrity) some bizarre commentaries on the day's happenings...that it's John's follow-up to Imagine is almost inconceivable to me. And while I appreciate most styles of music...I never have and never will "get" Yoko. Some forum members like to characterize her as avant guarde....like John Cage and others...but for someone
    "supposedly" trained classically, it never shows. She doesn't play any instruments...even her keyboards on the Live In NYC album and video are not mixed into the sound....strange. Her catawalling is boring and senseless. Unfortunately John's lovely take of Luck Of The Irish is ruined by her attempt at singing...back in '72 I made a reel-to-reel edit of LOTI, deleting her vocals. Even the uptempo numbers New York City and John Sinclair suffer from horriible lyrics...try singing along to NYC....the words don't match the meter of the song....a waste of vinyl IMO. The bonus LP, makes me pine for George's Apple Jam....terrible performances all around, even Cold Turkey is embellished with studio overdubs. Well (Baby Please Don't Go) is even more laid-back and plodding than his studio attempts. Ron
     
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  12. Driver 8

    Driver 8 Senior Member Thread Starter

    Is Kreen-Akrore really any more offensive than, say, Why Don't We Do It In The Road, Wild Honey Pie, or Maxwell's Silver Hammer? :confused:

    I'd say that you didn't get a truly questionable album from Paul until 1975 (Venus & Mars).
     
  13. John Carsell

    John Carsell Forum Resident

    Location:
    Northwest Illinois
    WITNOTW is the edited 45 version on "Shaved Fish" and on "Some Time" it's the full 5:16 full length version.

    The line about "leaving her for being a fat ol' mother hen" and a sax solo have been edited out.
     
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  14. Great Deceiver

    Great Deceiver Active Member

    Location:
    New Jersey
    Thanks, that makes sense now! :righton:

    John Hunter: Venus and Mars, eh I guess you're right, but hey you gotta love the opening Medley of Venus and Mars/Rockshow. It always gets me cracking up when Paul goes into his quasi-Cockney moment...KITTAY! hehe
     
  15. Uncle Al

    Uncle Al Senior Member

    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    I'd say that the McCartney album - taken as whole - is the first truly questionable album from Paul (yes - it has some great songs, but surrounding them with Lovely Linda, OOO You, That Would be Something, Glasses, Kreen Akore, Man We Was Lonely, Momma Miss America and Hot as Sun surely raised the question mark on my meters - Ram was a ray of sunshine, but I still hear it as an album that looses steam on side 2 - Wild Life raised those questions again). You must understand that, even in the Beatle years - I was one that had limited patience for Honey Pie/Your Mother Should Know/When I'm Sixty Four type Paul songs. (Although I admit liking the perversity of Maxwell's, as liked the perversity of The Monkees "Cuddly Toy", another one of those 60's "throwback-to-the-twenties" type songs).

    Anyway - STINYC was not the first major mis-step from ex-Beatles for me. I always felt the the first solo record I heard after we all knew they were history told me the dream is over a year before Lennon announced it on POB.
     
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  16. brainwashed

    brainwashed Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Boston, MA
    While McCartney isn't a great album by any means, it's important to note that Paul plays all the instruments himself.....his frustration as a guitarist and drummer show through quite a bit. Without supporting players he really had no choice but to play relatively simple songs, sort of airing out his guitar and drumming chops. The instrumentals are very much the result of this, just one-takes with loud guitar and overdubs. Steve's fav :) , Kreen-Akrore is just a drumming track, with added grunts, and effects and bursts of that loud lead...but is it questionable??? IMO, not at all. I mean, his playing is no better or worse than on Wild Honey Pie, just longer ;) . The Lovely Linda was simply the first thing he played directly into his Studer console, and he included it for that reason. It's quite obvious Paul lost his muse there for awhile...few, if any outtakes exist from the sessions and he had to ressurect Teddy Boy and Every Night from the Get Back Sessions; and exhume Hot As Sun and the little snatch of Suicide from years long past. Overall, I always thought the album was second-rate McCartney, give it a B-, and that's only because Maybe I'm Amazed is so awesome. In comparison, I give Sometime....a solid D. Ron
     
  17. Oatsdad

    Oatsdad Oat, Biscuits, Abbie & Mitzi: Best Dogs Ever

    Location:
    Alexandria VA
    Hell, it was his first album - he couldn't have had any "questionable" ones before it!
     
  18. john lennonist

    john lennonist There ONCE was a NOTE, PURE and EASY...

    Well, given my SHF handle, I'm not the most objective guy in the Forum about this... but I very much like New York City and John Sinclair.

    And I think a solo version of just JL on Luck Of The Irish would be fantastic...

    ... I tried eliminating Yoko's vocals from both this and Happy Christmas (War is Over) with my many-banded graphic equalizer, but it wouldn't come close.

    Any digital editing experts here know of a way to eliminate her wailing while minimally affecting the other music on those two songs?
     
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  19. fitzysbuna

    fitzysbuna Senior Member

    Location:
    Australia
    if you don't like it don't listen to it ! airbrushing history is not the way to go!
     
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  20. crimsoncing

    crimsoncing New Member

    Location:
    virginia beach
    Yeah Its like reading all those Sir Paul interviews for the last 10 years saying it was he who "fill in the blank" first not John! lol

    I do not get why this is a " Indefensible" LP? Because it is a 2 record set of (at the time) two forward thinking ARTIST who wanted a better world? If that is the case, you better throw out your early Bob Dylan Lps. Is it because it did not have any poppy sugar coasted sing alongs? Well I can understand that, but it was not aimed at that type of person. Was it because it was by a ex-BEATLES...ah HA! Thats it. It was not filled with hit singles and love songs about his exwife and tunes filled with how he missed the old days and how DARE is current wife (and a ARTIST in her own right) sing on a ex BEATLES LP!!!!!!!!

    This was a adult Lp aimed at grown up adults that cared (and still do) about where the world was heading. How dare the "The funny one" speak his mind. How dare this ex-Beatle ripe open old wounds and sing about them. HOW DARE HE!!!!

    I really mean this when I say.this is my 2nd favorte John Lennon LP. Right behind POB. I always found a little humor in the fact that when in the weeks following Johns death, this was the only LP you could find in any record store! Even in the frenzy of a Beatles passing, it would not sell.

    I loved George's Lp, found Ringos amusing but in a slowly downward sprial direction (at the time, not anymore) and Paul, well gosh darn it, can any one defend "THE INDEFENSIBLE" McCartney 2 or maybe Press to play. There are others but those two come right to the top of the list. SINY is a wonderful lp filled with statements about problems of the world. The Live sides are killer artist statments in the same vain as KING CRIMSON. Frank Zappa knew true talent and the fact that he worked with John blows me away. 2 out of three of my all time favorite artist together! For the record Robert Fripp is number 3.

    Yep this is one of the great ones in rock and roll history.If you took the name JOHN LENNON
    Off and put Fred brownberg or something like that, this would be a cult item that would have been reissued as a box set with tons of outtakes by now. Everyone would be bragging about how good it is !!!!

    But alas it has the curse of being a LP by a EX-BEATLE, thus...some of you seem to think it is a "Indefensible" work. Shall we talk about McCartney 2, Press to Play, Bad Boy, Ringo the forth or maybe Driving Rain?

    Just a little ray of sunhine somewhere in VA on a hot sticky rainyday and up way to EARLY on a SUNDAY! :angel:
     
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  21. brainwashed

    brainwashed Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Boston, MA
    I also love Zappa and Fripp, STINYC contains nothing remotely similar to what these artists produced. Zappa, and especially Fripp always use(d) top-flight musicians, and are great guitarists in their own right. There is NO great music on STINYC. Not a single song on this LP is memorable musically. Elephant's Memory were borderline amateur (you ever listen to the Live in NYC album??), and Lennon does little more than play rhythm guitar and the cute dobro part on John Sinclair. There is no spark on the album at all musically. I for one, think Imagine was a bit sugar-coated too, but it has melody and harmony and awesome music performed by seasoned professionals. It also showcases Lennon's vocals wonderfully. This album buries his vocals and he sounds either uninterested or over-the-top, depending on the songs and his mood.

    The jams with Zappa are boring, something one would never expect from Zappa and the Mothers and certainly not King Crimson. Both of those groups contained some of the premier musicians of their day, to even remotely compare them to the sounds heard on the bonus jams does both groups an injustice. The artists just sound completely uninspired to me. Lyrically, the songs on STINYC show John at his worst too. lazy lyrics, writing about nearly EVERY current event of the day...too much so. If he focused on a few topical issues...really thought passionately about them, it would have worked much better.

    Now to Yoko.....Her songs are actually written better than John's on this album, IMO. Al- though her attempts at singing are banal, at best. Admittedly, I don't get Yoko, but what makes you feel she is a "artist" ? Seriously, are you talking about her art exhibits or flair for the avant guarde? Certainly not her singing...and as I mentioned previously...she does not "play" any of her music. She isn't a singer or musician. And the swipe at Linda not being an "artist" was unncessary. Everyone knew Paul wanted her to tour and record with him, she wasn't passed off as being an artist, though she was already famous for her photography work. What exactly was Yoko's previous recording experience?
    Exactly...she had none.

    Now to McCartney....admittedly, his lyrics around this time were not much better, but his overall music presentation more than compensates IMO. Love songs, songs about, and for his wife....sure...but John had written his fair share of songs in this vein too....Love, How, Oh Yoko, Oh my Love to name but a few. As far as looking back at his past, a year after STINYC John started recording his Rock And Roll album!!!! I have no doubt you're sincere in your post, probably pushing the envelope to raise a few hackles, but hey it's all in fun... I'm listening to King Crimson Live At The Marquee Club right now....sir you truly can't be serious with your thoughts that Live Jam even remotely compares as an "killer artistic statement"
    All the best, from Boston....Ron
     
  22. Tomek

    Tomek Senior Member

    Location:
    Krakow, Poland
    Some Time In NYC Japan LP from the 70s.

    I got an EAS series Japan EMI -Toshiba LP version of that double album in mint condition with all the inserts for sale. I wonder if anyone will be interested in it?

    I must have played it three times ever, nothing more!!!!

    Regards

    Tomek
     
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  23. Tomek

    Tomek Senior Member

    Location:
    Krakow, Poland
    Some Time NYC

    It looks nice with all that papers, postracrds and the rest ...

    Quite probably it is one of the best sounding versions (un)available. It beats CD for sure!!!

    Tomek
     
  24. Driver 8

    Driver 8 Senior Member Thread Starter

    I'm interested in it. Send me a private message if you like.
     
  25. John Carsell

    John Carsell Forum Resident

    Location:
    Northwest Illinois
    I remember one of the very first reviews for "Some Time In New York City" called it "artistic suicide."
     
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