Defend the Indefensible: "Sometime in New York City"

I only bought STINYC album (it was used, to boot) in order to have the song New York City on mix tapes for solo John Lennon. I only have it on CD because it is part of the John Lennon CD box set of all his albums. Also, there are comps that have the song New York City that I have acquired between that time.

 

Your anti-Yoko crusade on this forum is simultaneously sad and funny. Did she personally victimise you at one point or something?

 

Wasn't aware of any other posts I've made about her. Just my, and probably thousands of others opinion, about her. I do feel victimized when she does that screeching she was so fond of.

 

I don't mind it - in fact I like most of it. Some of the songs haven't aged too well, but I guess they were written as a quick response to issues that were happening at the time (hence, as was said above, the newspaper sleeve). Yoko's songs are mostly fine. I have a double CD and the single CD with both sides of the Happy Christmas single, the latter being the version I prefer. It's far from the worst Beatles solo album I've heard!

 

I didn’t buy this LP until 1981, after I bought a bootleg of Lennon ‘s TV appearances that exposed me to several of the songs. It had been the only legitimately released Lennon LP I did not own prior to his death.

I can’t argue that it is not a good-sounding record. As our host has pointed out, it lacks both a low end and a high end.

It had not aged well even by the time of its release. Much of it is embarrassing.

With that said, I enjoy some of it. The song New York City is an enjoyable rocker, and I like Luck of the Irish as well. This was also the first record where I heard songs from Yoko that I enjoy, especially We’re All Water.

It’s not a particularly good record, but I have others I enjoy less (including from former Beatles). That may be damning it with faint praise, but that’s as much as I can argue for STINYC.

By the way, if you hold out hope that the SACD might sound better; it does not.

 

Defend STiNYC? Uh, okay. I'll do what I can.

I have always liked Lennon's singing at the end of 'Woman is the ****** of the World.' And I guess 'New York City' is okay. Forget about the rest of Lennon's originals on that record though. It was more about making some kind of statement for him than it was about making good music, with unfortunate results.

'Sisters, O Sisters' is one of Yoko's best tunes.

I like 'Well (Baby Please Don't Go)' too.

That's it.

 

It's a terrible album, obviously, but I do prefer it to horrid albums like Bad Boy, Ringo the IV, Wings At The Speed of Sound, and even Mind Games. It's at least vital and interesting. (It's the last Lennon that sounds like "sixties music" before the 70s' stuff comes in.) Unfortunately, it's musically crap.

If we did the following...
-- cut it down to a 4-song EP, featuring 'New York City', 'Sunday Bloody Sunday', 'The Luck of the Irish', and 'John Sinclair'
-- removed Yoko's vocal entirely from the tracks
-- made 'New York City' shorter and edited out 90% of the "gotta-gotta-gotta's" in 'John Sinclair'
-- remixed the whole thing so it didn't sound like muted mush

...and issued it maybe 6 months before it actually came out (the album was already dated when it was released!), I think it would have been a solid release that wouldn't have harmed John's rep at all. But that's a lot of tinkering to salvage four tracks (none of which is very good) from a double-album!

What's fascinating to me about this album isn't so much the music itself -- which, as noted, is 90% garbage -- as trying to figure out what John was thinking at the time. It's strange to think that 7.5 years after The Ed Sullivan Show, John was still a neophyte to New York City (and the US, in general), but he was. He really had no idea, trusting what Yoko told him about her adopted hometown. I think he had the romantic notion that everyone in the US -- esp. in New York -- was a hipster who would make conservative, old England seem like a reactionary, Victorian land of stuffed-shirts. But what he discovered was that it was more like the opposite -- the US was full of conservatives (who were about to re-elect Nixon in a landslide and make bands like Humble Pie into stadium Gods), and the UK was much more progressive musically.

Of course, none of this would have mattered, today, if the album had been musically solid. It wasn't. You just can't write protest songs with dumb, vapid lyrics. The Angela Davis song has the amazing clunker: "They gave you everything except the jailhouse key!" Wow, what insight.

John definitely got defensive about it at the time of release. I've often wondered, since the 2nd disc of 2.5-year-old live jams with Frank Zappa (and George Harrison) was added, if John realized, just before STINYC was mastered, that the main disc was going to be an embarrassing turkey, and so he decided to throw in the "free disc" to make people look at the whole album more sympathetically? Didn't work, anyway.

Then, to top it all off, the vocal performances are mostly weak, the production is muddy and messed, and you've got bar-band Elephant's Dung (over)playing on everything.


(Note: 'Sunday Bloody Sunday' is a really nice song. You should hear the Wolfe Tones' version – check YouTube.)

 

Whole album would have reached way more people with that instead of a single radio would not touch

 

Can you point me in the direction of the posts I have made about Yoko? I am at a loss to find them.

 

First if all it has a couple truly great songs- "New York City" & "Woman Is The n****r Of The World".

Then it has a couple very good songs- "John Sinclair" & "The Luck Of The Irish".

And one good Yoko song too- "Sisters 'O Sisters". That's half the album of original material being well worth it, to varying degrees.

It was a noble & brave concept, just executed in a manner that was a little ham fisted. And finally, while the live stuff isn't earth shattering, I'd rather have it than not.

Overall it's much more underrated/misunderstood than anything else. But it's also far from a great album & even to this defender of it's merits, it's not an album I'd ever listen to end to end again.

 

The John songs are all quite good. I think the production lets this album down. I’m not a big fan of that honking sax either.

Sometime In New York City is an album that was considered bad in its time and hasn’t been re-evaluated by myself, or seemingly anyone, as being better than first thought.

I wonder if a remix would help. I like the remix of “Angela”. The remix would sound okay on Mind Games or maybe even Imagine.

 

After 49 years STINYC is what it is. I'd say we're all used to it by now, it ain't gonna improve over time, and wishing won't make it so

 

Sorry. I confused you with someone else. Since the threadcrapping rules on this forum apparently don't apply to Yoko, it’s hard to keep up. Apologies.

 

It's my fourth favorite Lennon album, my fourth favorite Ono album, and my second favorite John & Yoko album. Could be third, third, and first, though. Neither side of the live disc is wholly exhilarating, and there are issues of course with accreditation, but unlike Apple Jam the live selections have merit.
Yeah the backing band can feel sluggish at times, but I'm down with where the music goes here. The sound of the studio stuff is extra murky (though, as I recall, the original vinyl sounds better than the original double CD that followed) courtesy of the infamous producer; the eventual 2005 remix tries to address this but makes terrible error of shortening We're All Water which is one of my favorite numbers ever. [Ages ago Yoko replied to my tweet, in which I expressed that the full length version of song should be back in print, by saying that she was glad someone was still listening to & enjoying the song; that was a joyful moment in which I was glad the internet existed.] The opening track (Lennon/Ono), Sisters, O Sisters (Ono), and John Sinclair (Lennon) are also great, and the rest of the studio cuts are quite good excepting Sunday Bloody Sunday (Lennon/Ono), which may be the one dud on the album. Lose that track, sub in the two amazing songs — Happy Xmas (War Is Over) (Lennon/Ono) and Listen, The Snow Is Falling (Ono) — which are the bonus tracks on the remixed single disc, set aside the live disc as its own thing for whenever if ever it needs spinning, and that'd be a great studio album.

 

It's the bloody John and Yoko's Sometime In New York City album, leave off....

 

So.. I have listened to Some Time In New York City...
I think about half of it is listenable. Yoko should have been made to stay off stage and out of the studio. There are some songs I'd listen to again. I'd amend the song order in mediamonkey.

There's an EP's worth of good material there.
Woman is the n****r of the world | New York City | John Sinclair

My musings on it, track by track.

Woman is the n****r of the world
It’s a bit of an epic, really. As good as anything on Imagine.

Sisters O sisters
Yoko’s vocal is a bit weak. If John had sung it, we’d have been ok with it. You have to wonder if her opening dig at the “male chauvinist pig engineer” was serious and was meant to stamp her authority over proceedings.

Attica state
The first few bars sounded vaguely like T.Rex and I was hopeful. Nearly a bit of a jumbled jam in places, the dual vocals ruin it by making it sound a bit weak and making the words unclear.

Born in a prison
Again, Yoko’s vocals are maybe a bit weak in places. But they are by far not the worst she’s ever done. If John had sung this song, he’d have got away with it. A bit long for what it is.

New York City
It’s just a good old rock song, feeling like a bit of a follow on from Ballad of John and Yoko. Quite passable and it would have been ok on any of his albums.

Sunday bloody Sunday
The sax is reminiscent of Whatever gets you through the night. He uses a couple of phrasing tricks from Come Together. The track generally has a good enough feel and groove to it, but the sloppy chorus massed vocals really mess it up. If he had done this song at another time, that wouldn’t have happened. This was released a few months after the Wings track Give Ireland back to the Irish. I’m surprised he jumped on that bandwagon.

The luck of the Irish
And again, John gets very political about Ireland. Yoko warbles away on some verses on it, thereby immediately losing some listeners. I know John was including her, but she was such a weak singer. Not repeated listening.

John Sinclair
And… on he goes, now well-intentionedly protesting John Sinclair’s imprisonment. Musically, it’s quite ok, but not much of a grower – or is it? John makes his point, moves on and leaves us to deal with it. I came away from this one wondering if I’d listen to it again.

Angela
Yet another protest song – Black Panther supporter Angela Davis in prison, but later let out. Yoko sings along, reducing the impact of the Lennon vocal. Middling.

We’re all water
I’ve really had enough of Yoko by now. The album is what it is because the pair of them are on it. If I pick up an album with the word Lennon on the cover, I know what I want. This is well-backed garbage, a waste of tape. Yoko is taking the mick out of all concerned in the middle of this, with her squawking noises. Linda McCartney didn’t inflict this type of cr@p on us. More squawking and screaming noises – It really is over-long. That’s 7.14 of my life I’ll never get back. Music to put on the PA tape to clear the venue quickly when the band has finished.

Cold Turkey
Takes ages to get started. John could be as guilty of endless shrieking as Yoko and this is your proof, but he WAS doing the primal scream thing. It’s ok when it gets going, but I’d rather listen to the single than get this whole live primal scream experience. Not one to listen to again.

Don’t worry Kyoko
Again, endless waiting for the track to start. Everybody in the world tunes up and Yoko feels she has to wail over it. The backing is a bit Led Zep, but I gave up on this track, never to return to it, quite quickly.

Well (Baby please don’t go)
Zappa and band get John up. Unfortunately, Yoko is given a microphone, so she can ruin it.

Jamrag
Various animal noises preface the actual track and Yoko doesn’t shut up. I imagine that people on the night were amazed to see John Lennon there, but Yoko’s participation must have had them all complaining.

Scumbag
This is more like it. Yoko isn’t that present on this

Au
Yoko decides we need sheep noises as the song continues off into unexplored jam territory. Most of the recording is feedback and Yoko screaming. Horrific.

Is it the worst of the Beatles-related solo albums from the period?
Without a doubt.
As I type this, the Mind Games album starts up - the difference is as clear as night and day.
Musically, it is similar in places, but John kept Yoko out of the way - result - she had no business being on record.

 

The live album is my favorite Lennon solo album. I like the studio one also. Yoko's best songs are on it.Bought it when I was 11 or 12. I completely understand anyone saying it's the worst thing he ever did. I don't feel that way. To me, generic is worse than terrible in this case.

 

While I've never owned a smart-phone, I always thought it would be cool to have the 'call-and-responce' Yoko and the horn-section bit from "Don't Worry" as my ring-tone!

 

Didn't the Lennon's have a plan with this record? Release an LP of relevant topical songs every six months, sort of as their personal commentary on the news-of-the-day for their fans? I keep that concept in mind when listening to it. It seems like they were working to get out of the artist/audience mindset and initiate something more participatory, more interactive with what was going on in the streets. It makes more sense to listen to the recordings as one-shot-off-the-top-of-the-head op-ed pieces rather than as popular songwriting craft.

I often wish they had followed up on this idea and stayed on schedule. It would have kept Lennon busy and continually connected with New York City's political/musical culture instead of wandering aimlessly around his apartment ("watching the wheels go round'n'round"). It would have saved his career and possibly even his life. And, thirty years on, such a series would be critically judged as way ahead of it's time, sort of a musical blog encapsulating the era historically, at ground level.

 

I played STINYC for the first time tonight. This is definitely a stretch, but Yoko's repetitive vocals on "Don't Worry" sound vaguely like John Lydon in his early PIL days, and Gilli Smyth of Gong's spooky sounds prepared me for side 4, so I don't actively dislike the album. As erratic as it is, I think it's an essential part of where John's head was at in his first few post-Beatles years, and I'll keep my nice Australian vinyl copy.

 

Holy thread resurrection, Batman. Seeing comments from 15 years ago makes me feel old!

I recall a stinging review of the double album referred to STINYC as: “proletariat politics at a bourgeois price.”

A lot of the content is cringeworthy, heavy-handed agitprop moralizing, much of which hasn’t aged too well.

That said, John’s passion and clever edge is on full display, and Elephant’s Memory can be funky and groovy within their musical limitations.

The bad unfortunately outweighs the good, however.

“New York City” is a catchy, fun autobiographical song. A sequel to The Ballad of John and Yoko. Perhaps a minor Lennon masterpiece...

Against all odds, an unwieldy polemic like “WITNOTW” works quite well given John’s passion and the wall of sound production.

I don’t actively seek out any songs from this album, however. I recall in one of John’s final interviews he virtually disowned the album.

Plus Zappa allegedly got angry with John about the lack of song copyrights he was given on the live disc. John inadvertently managed to generate hurt feelings with Zappa.

The live “Baby Please Don’t Go” is superb. Yoko needs to be mixed out of that song in post production.

 

I think a remix is worth doing. It’s John Lennon. This is all there is.

It doesn’t help that it’s not a full Lennon album. Regardless of a remixing, the Yoko songs just aren’t great. Too bad she didn’t use “Death Of Samantha” and “Yang Yang” (songs even non-Yoko fans hear as pretty good). Obviously those songs don’t fit the concept.

Over time, Mind Games has been largely rehabilitated, with help from the remix. But that’s all John.

 

Even though I already talked at length about it a couple of pages back, I have another very good reason for liking the album that I didn't mention.

I love this album because YOU hate it.

 

The lyrics are truly awful. Like a 12 year old social studies project. And they didn’t bother to match syllables in way too many places. And John’s rock vocals sound like first takes, except for the single.

Having said that, I love the punk sound of the album. It’s a glorious mess but so funky. I don’t get the criticism of the band either, they sound like a groovy party band. I have no issues with their performances. Vibe for days. Spector’s claustrophobic mix works for me. I think this album would be well thought of with they bothered to write decent lyrics and Yoko’s singing was kept to a minimum.

 

"Maybe the Poet" by Bruce Cockburn
perfectly summarizes the need for the artist to speak out.

Bruce Cockburn - Maybe The Poet - YouTube