I received a reply from Degritter and a suggestion was made to go to the DEBUG mode to check the temperatures. Simple to access. Select the INFO mode. Push the right knob and then turn the left knob one position. It displays more info and is backlit in a reddish hue. Now any cleaning mode used will show the Debug display below the normal cleaning mode display. You can observe the temperature changes in real time. To exit the DEBUG mode, select the INFO mode again, push on the right knob and then 1 click of the left knob. Now the normal INFO window is displayed. Ran a cycle in the heavy mode since I experienced a cooling water cycle with the this mode during the first record cleaning. I jotted down each change in temp starting from the initial temp and the time each degree c was made. Starting off at 24c with a 9:45 total time, it went into the cooling water sequence at the 4:22 time indication. The temp reading was indeed, 35c. This information was passed on to Degritter and will wait for their response.
that's a crazy amount of heat going into the water. Is it super-powered or perhaps something else could be dumping excess heat into the water.
It's the very nature of ultrasonic agitation of water that it will heat up because of the energy being dumped into it. It's just physics and cannot be changed. Adding an ice cube makes the most sense to me.
I noticed a fracture on the water tank around where the handle is screwed into the plastics, like a spider burst crack, obviously from being over tightened at factory. Sent some pictures over to the Lovely people at Degritter and they confirmed manufacturing defect and sent me a replacement. Replacement arrived, but is different to the original. The lid no longer sits flush the the tank, it now overhangs across the back edge leaving a small gap, questioned it with Degritter and they quoted it is not by design? Now makes the unit look un smooth, not a game changer but interested in if others have this ‘new’ designed lid tank combo? Personally I preferred the flush fitting lid, never struggled removing the lid? Not sure there was a need to redesign it or was it more a case of the new tanks came like this from the manufacturer and better to say it’s a new design than bin the last and start again ? I can post pics if someone lets me know the best free way to host them.
I emailed back and forth with Degritter regarding the difference between the unit I had in early 2021 and the one I purchased in early 2022 and the response was the version I have now has a more powerful transducer, thus generating more heat.
An alternative solution to help cool the water is to use small ice packs. Purchased these https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01EHEUWZC?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details and they work good for a short period of time. With the amount of heat generated, they go from 0 degrees f to 80 degrees f after 6 or 7 runs @ the Quick setting with 3 minutes dry time.
Well, I did suggest dropping in the odd ice cube! But I don't try to go through all the records and clean them en bloc. I clean what I want to play, and while it plays, the next one is being cleaned in the basement. This way I get staircase exercise, the records get cleaned where I need not listen to the noise, and I get to enjoy a nice clean music while it all happens. Sure, it will take some time to reach into the rarely-played corners of the collection, but the process is painless like this. Currently enjoying the mono Missa Luba, that I, like so many, learned about from Lindsay Anderson's If...
Quick Q for Neil out of curiosity. For my older records I keep convincing myself that there is a significant sonic uplift from an Enzyme (mofi) pre clean step in the chain applied on my RCM in addition to a pre clean with Dehypon prior to cleaning in the degeitter (one tank and cycle with surfactant - seems to remove some additional noise/clicks - and one tank and cycle with Distilled water only). I assume 4 mins with the mofi cleaner is removing some things that the surfactant and US cleaning can’t handle. Is there any logic to the sequence: Enzyme first (my default and your advice in the book) or Dehypon first (how I actually test and convince myself there is a difference by adding the enzyme step and a further rinse in the degritter after listening to just the Dehypon clean). Does the enzyme cleaner benefit from having a cleaner record to work with (or at least the removal of any other residual chemicals from past cleanings) or does it not matter too much? Any benefit from a quick degritter rinse before the Enzyme cleaner? Probably over thinking Regardless getting really excellent results with the above process. Thanks for all your help.
How are you using the MoFi enzyme cleaner and what brush are you using? The experience of others and MoFi own literature indicates the product has no wetting agent(s) so the product beads up on the record which is generally contrary to accepted practice. "Highly purified, high-surface tension water is used as the base for PLUS. This water will bead up, removing contaminants and holding them in the beads rather than allowing them to settle back into the grooves." If it is beading up on the record, only the wetted surface is exposed to the enzymes, and the book VIII.9 addresses how enzymes work and their limitations. Most enzyme cleaners such as U.S sourced Sporicidin (download the SDS Sporicidin Enzymatic Cleaner: Enzyme-Based Cleaning Solution (contecprofessional.com) and this is the tech data sheet tds_sporicidin_enzyme_mold_cleaner_us_4XKMzqr.pdf ), is water, enzymes, a nonionic surfactant and an anionic surfactant. The surfactants lower the water surface tension to better wet all surfaces exposing the surfaces to the cleaner as well as add detergency for soils the enzyme cannot remove. But the MoFi product may be formulated to work withs its large flat surface brush which is different from the standard long-bristle type brushes. The large surface short fiber pad is intended to physically scrub the groove, not leaving much room for cleaning fluid, so less need for wetting - but this is a guess. Otherwise, in general, the pre-cleaner is applied first - in your case the MoFi enzyme cleaner followed by the final clean with a compatible and relatively mild nonionic surfactant (in your Dehypon) that acts as both a wetting agent and emulsifier. Switching these up would be not generally be recommended. But not knowing what is in the MoFi cleaner other than enzymes with no surfactants - it's hard to say conclusively. However, something you could try is to take 50-100 ml of the MoFi Enzyme cleaners and add 3-4 drops of Dehypon and see if this helps with pre-cleaning. Adding the Dehypon to the MoFi will lower the surface tension allowing it to wet the record fully making the soak more effective to junk in the groove, while adding some emulsifying detergency for oils that are insensitive to enzymes. Follow-up with your final clean with only Dehypon. Otherwise, disregard and apply the old adage - if it's not broke don't fix it.
Thanks Neil - I have been using the flat mofi brush to spread the mofi PLUS usually for about a minute with the record rotating. Then leave to stand for 3 mins. I have always found the beading strange. Will experiment a bit. It may also be possible I just hear the benefit of an extra degritter cycle in my tests. Its tricky to test, the only easy way I have found is to skip the step on one side of an LP and compare. As you say the process is definitely not broken and I am enjoying listening to the results immensely. I was worried the enzymes would target any surfactant mixed in with it but its reassuring to hear that is unlikely. Will try a few further statistically insignificant tests to see if I hear any differences though I have now got to the stage where I clean on demand as I listen rather than batch clean as most of the LPs I listen to most frequently are done. Thanks again for all your help.
4 drops of Dehypon added to mofi enzyme plus in 4oz bottle i had certainly dealt with the beading issue. Will report if I notice anything different. If anything I will be able to use a little less mofi cleaner.
Trialed the adjusted process with two LPs (one from 80s and one from 70s) which both produced excellent results. Mofi mixture, then Dehypon then two cycles in the degritter one with and one without surfactant. I will try to get some time to do an A/B test later but can’t immediately see a downside.
I've been doing a lot of playing around with the Kirmuss Degritter and a Pro-Ject vacuum machine. They all have their strengths. The Degritter is amazing for rinsing. I realize that sounds like damning with faint praise but it isn't at all. I disagree with Kirmuss about the need to rinse. I can follow his cleaning process exactly (not the drying) and then put an LP in a completely virgin cycle of distilled water in the Degritter. There is residue that comes off. More to the point, I can take an album that was recently fully cleaned with the Kirmuss and do a cycle with a tiny amount of alcohol in the Degritter followed by a rinse. It clearly (pardon the pun) opens things up. I find the Kirmuss to be a bit better for deeper cleaning and the Pro-Ject using A.I.'s 3 step process is the best for that. Follow it with the Degritter rinse and it's superb. The A.I. stuff is hard to rinse but worth it. Oh the Degritter fluid is, in my opinion, not at all good. It leaves an audible haze over the sound. Inhaling the fumes during the cleaning also affects my heart and breathing. I have both COPD and AFIB so I'm probably more susceptible. All of these agents bother me to a minor degree but the Degritter is by far the worst.
There is no such thing as a "Kirmuss Degritter". Charles Kirmuss owns a company based in the U.S. that markets an eponymous machine. It uses a low power, low frequency ultrasonic system, requires manual cleaning intervention by users, and has no drying mechanism. Degritter is a completely different company based in Estonia. Degritter designs and manufactures a machine that is higher powered, higher frequency, cleans more effectively, and has a built-in drying mechanism.
I think that @Richard Milam left out a comma when listing the machines as his post clearly states his observations of all three products.
Let's eat grandma!!!! I also thought that the poster talks about all three systems. I never noticed any negative effects of the fluid that came with Degritter and certainly I did not notice a haze because of it. I have cleaned a record with plain distilled water and then the same record using the fluid there was no impact other than the second time the LP was a little cleaner. This is a test that everyone can do easily.
You're probably exactly right. I apologize. Then again, it's the difference between helping your Uncle Jack off his horse and helping your uncle, jack off his horse. Maybe I'm just getting old and cranky and tired of sloppy writing that demands everybody concentrate to understand something written with a lack of basic clarity, or moves someone to assume something means what he thinks it might mean, or ignores punctuation because the writer thinks that just because he considered something a certain way that everybody else thinks the same way. I make enough of my own typos too. I should probably not comment, but it's too late. Apologies. Or maybe I think that implying the use of a $3000 Degritter as merely a rinsing machines is so completely off-base or bizarre that I personally lost all perspective during my response. I apologize for that as well. Anybody who insists that Degritter record cleaning fluid "leaves an audible haze over the sound" has made a mistake during his use of the machine. He has either used too much of the fluid, used contaminated water, used a badly contaminated filter, used water left in the storage tank long enough to develop contamination, used too short of a cleaning cycle for a particularly difficult LP, or some combination of two or more of those things. Used as directed, most of the cheap machines - from a $60 Spin Clean through the $200 ultrasonic wash-only units, and from the turntable-style non-US Okki Nokki, VPI, Pro-ject and Nitty Gritty machines on up through the multi-thousand-dollar US units will all do a perfectly good job on most LPs including some really grimy ones. The main catch is that the machines have to be used more or less patiently, as each of their designs demand, and exactly as directed. The other catch is that each of the machines require varying degrees of manual effort from users specific to the machine's design. The other thing that makes me unreasonably picky is any advice to use alcohol in a Degritter or any other machine that does not specifically allow it. As usual, a tiny bit is unlikely to damage seals or other parts of the machine. Unfortunately, the only recommendation Degritter offers for the use of IPA is during interior maintenance of the cleaning tank - a toothbrush wetted with some IPA to scrub the cleaning tank walls - followed by a vinegar solution, five cleaning passes, and then three cleaning passes with uncut distilled water in order to remove all traces of vinegar and IPA. Read the Degritter instructions and website support pages. Don't use high-alkalinity or high-acidity solutions in a Degritter - i.e., no IPA in the cleaning solution storage tank. In my experience, fully half the audiophiles experimenting with different cleaning solutions in a given machine don't properly clean out all traces of one concoction before filling a tank with a different concoction. The resulting chemical unpleasantness is often not good for LPs, creates trace amounts of unhealthy vapour, all of it occasionally also happening in a poorly ventilated workspace. Jewellers and wristwatch repair technicians make extensive use of ultrasonic cleaning machines and solutions because they're effective systems, when used strictly as directed by the machine maker, and because the machines save time and carefully clean small, delicate parts. The research on cleaning solutions has been done and there are only esoteric questions left - none that can be answered by an audiophile experimenting in his work room at home. Audiophiles should take the time to read the excellent book that @pacvr has written. He has done the research to get it right. I think that anyone who claims that a Spin Clean (as mentioned in an older thread) or a Degritter or an Okki Nokki (in an older thread) "...leaves an audible haze over the sound..." is simply making incorrect use of the machine. That happens most often when someone decides to ignore strict attention to instructions and susses out his own method instead.
This may have changed but Degritter, in the past, has said up to 50ml of IPA was acceptable. Maybe they have since changed that allowance.
@Agitater Nice post above. Thanks also for use of paragraphs and proper punctuation (and not all capitals). Makes it easy to read and follow...unlike some posts which seems like vomiting on the screen. So, no need for you to apologize. Now, about your Uncle Jack & his horse....just kidding..
Still, I apologize to @Richard Milam if only because it has for a long time been rude to critique grammar in posts online. It's even in the forum rules. So, I was wrong. Of course, it was deemed rude originally (back in the Usenet days as far as I can recall) as a defensive mechanism insisted on by forum and BBS moderators and owners who mainly knew the technology and little else, but who nonetheless insisted that the freedom to communicate online encompassed the mistakes of doing it poorly, inaccurately, and free of any critique. Plus, nothing gets discussed at any length when half a dozen people jump into a thread to criticize or correct poor grammar and syntax. The danger of losing the point of the thread looms and that's even more counter-productive. The result is that three generations online have grown or evolved with the ubiquity of the Web, and the concomitant belief and insistence that any critique of language, grammar or syntax in individual posts is either demeaning or repressive. It may also be a gradual acceptance of lower and lower common denominators for public communication. As much as I personally like and use my own Degritter, revile the Kirmuss machine, praise the Audio Desk Systeme, and absolutely pan the cheap, mis-purposed ultrasonic machines that have popped up on Amazon over the past couple of years, the answer to any question about the best machine for a particular audiophile to choose can safely be based on available budget alone. I think that has occurred because all of the major systems - from Spin Clean on up - work almost identically well for the vast majority of used and new LPs as long as the systems are used as directed by manufacturers who have (behind the scenes) upgraded and modified their systems over many years. In a recent PM thread with another member who contacted me for a discussion about gaining some clarity with respect to staying with his current manual system vs. purchasing an ultrasonic system, it turned out that he was getting very good results - quiet grooves, no static, etc. The advice I offered was that because he fully understood the manual system through precise, use-as-directed efforts that had gradually evolved over the years, there was no audible gain to had by spending hundreds or even thousands more dollars on an ultrasonic machine of any kind. I'll stand by that advice because in side-by-side comparisons, and without making use of any cleaning trickery, I can prove it almost every single time.
Great. Buddhist proverbs - Shantideva, yes? - because that clears things up about as well as a stirring beige food coloring into a bowl of porridge. Besides, the thread topic is about the Degritter, so how about an old Estonian proverb instead? "A smart one learns from the mistakes of others – tark õpib teiste vigadest."
I think the manual and tech support state that the removable water storage tank is ethanol-proof, and that a toothbrush wetted with IPA can be used when cleaning the main cleaning tank. The manual and tech support also state that use of highly alkaline or highly acidic cleaning solutions is not recommended and will void the warranty if there is resulting damage. The Degritter warranty (and those of most other ultrasonic cleaning machines of all kinds) states, "Use of unauthorised chemical cleaning agents or liquids will void this warranty."
