Hi all, For those using Tergitol, I don’t believe a rinse is required correct? Sorry, I know this was covered but we are at 80 pages on this thread and will be a little challenging to find! I am pretty sure it is not required which is why I purchased but just wanted to double check. Cheers, Vin.
I believe tergitol 15-s-9 at the recommended solution (can’t recall exactly) that any residue it could possibly leave would be insignificant enough to not bother having to rinse.
That’s what I remember reading a while back. Thanks for the confirmation and I am going to use a touch less 10ml rather than 11ml to begin with. Cheers, Vin.
I would double check that amount. I don’t have the exact percent solution, but my gut tells me 10-11ml of pure tergitol in a 1400ml tank would be too much.
How many times are folks reusing the filters before putting in a new one? I'm at 100 cleans now and my filter looks just fine, after washing it that is. At least I do not see any significant change compared to the new ones in my pack.
Hello everyone, I'm a proud Degritter user but run into a little problem as of recent and wondering if anyone else has experienced this... I’ve been using the Degritter to clean all new from shrink wrap records, with no issues whatsoever. I got the new el camino deluxe box set, usual thing, stick in cleaner before play, I notice a weird residue/clouding on the dead wax and grooves, nothing on the 100s of other records I cleaned, same solution, same set up everything. Tried rinsing off with just distilled water and no cleaning solution, no luck, tried washing off with usual distilled water and cleaning solution, no luck, however it rubs off the surface with a micro fibre cloth (dry). Which is fine, although I’m worried it’s stuck in the grooves on the record and transferring to my stylus, turntable mat, other records from the stylus/mat and or the bath of water/degritter itself... etc. Could this be excess mould release that’s in the vinyl mixture itself, or too much sprayed on the stampers at the factory? Is it something to worry about? Thought I’d ask and see if anyone has experienced something similar? Thanks!
FWIW, all the testing that was done is summarized in the book - XIV.7 Degritter™ UCM: The following summarizes some test results of various chemistries with the Degritter™ UCM that were addressed at the Steve Hoffman Forum™ Degritter Users | Steve Hoffman Music Forums.
Thank You. I had good results with the Degritter fluid last time around with my replacement machine but from what I had read in this thread and from some other reviews, the Tergitol does a better job and would be an upgrade. So I have followed your mixing procedure (Thank You again!) and have made the Tergitol mix which I will be looking to go with going forward. I essentially wanted to use something which didn't require me to perform an additional rinse, as I want to use the simple one step "clean and use" method, which both the Degritter and Tergitol based solutions allow for. I guess there is an argument to rinse after using the Degritter fluid as it may leave something but I have also read that this is very minimal and not necessarily something that would impact audio quality. For me, it's not worth the extra hassle as I literally want to just clean once and store the LP's (or play back!) Thanks as always... Vin.
Vin, You are working with a 1% Tergitol 15-S-9 solution, so adding 10-ml to the 1400-ml Degritter tank gets you an in-use concentration of (10/1400)(1%) = 0.0071% = 71 ppm. This will get you some detergency (not much, but somea0, but if you notice too much foam, or you if believe you are hearing reside, drop it to 8-ml which will get about 57 ppm. This will be enough for full wetting but no detergency, but the Degritter cleaner at 1-ml is no different other than it will foam less. Good Luck, Neil
Hi Neil and much appreciated as always. My understanding is that it’s best to have some level of detergency to help with improving the cleaning process, so I probably would therefore not want to go down to 8-ml correct? When you say the Degritter at 1-ml is no different - is that no different to the Tergitol at 10ml or 8ml? Are you also suggesting that I could simply use the Degritter at 1-ml avoiding any foaming and not go with Tergitol? Sorry, I am a little confused now! lol Cheers, Vin.
Vin, Yes, it good to have some detergency for cleaning, but the Degritter because of the pump/filter system is sensitive to developing foam. The Degritter 'cleaner' is a low foaming nonionic surfactant, and is a good wetting solution, but it has very little detergency no matter what the concentration - it's the nature of the specific nonionic surfactant that it uses. The Tergitol 15-S-9 is a nonionic surfactant that is a good wetting solution and at higher concentration (i.e, 10-ml) also provides detergency (good at emulsifying oil such as fingerprints), but it foams more than the Degritter low-foaming nonionic surfactant. The 1% Tergitol at 8-ml in-use gets good wetting but no detergency, which is the same as the Degritter solution used at 1-ml. The 1% Tergitol at 10-ml gets some detergency. Most people report some foam on the first record but then it subsides. Neil
Thanks Neil. I will start with 10ml of Tergitol and see how it goes from there. While the majority of my LP's are brand new with no finger prints or oils, I like having some level of detergency as it is probably doing a slightly better job with cleaning overall - unless you would recommend otherwise and therefore, I go with the 8-mil Tergitol. Also, correct me if I am wrong and apologies if you are confirming for the 100th time here, but Tergitol does not leave any residue like the Degitter fluid correct, which is another advantage and therefore negating the need for a rinse cycle? Thanks as always... Cheers, Vin.
Vin, All surfactant solutions unless rinsed will leave residue. The amount of residue left behind is proportional to the concentration used; and if the concentration is low enough, the residue left behind is so thin as to be in consequential. As I wrote in prior post regarding the Degritter solution, if you use 1-ml/1400-ml, the 'calculated/estimated" residue left on the record from 2-ml drying (each side) will be a residue film less than 0.02 microns. This residue film thickness is inconsequential. If you use 10-ml of 1% Tergitol/1400-ml, the 'calculated/estimated" residue left on the record from 2-ml drying will be a film also less than 0.02 microns. Reducing to using 8-ml of 1% Tergitol/1400-ml may reduce the film thickness to less than 0.015 microns. The key to a no-rinse formula is to use a high-performance surfactant that allows using a very low concentration. There is a wild-card: the cloud-point of the two solutions is very different. Cloud-point is the temp that the surfactant comes out of solution. The surfactant likely used by the Degritter solution has a cloud-point of only ~28C. This is less than the unit's water operating temp, but at very low concentrations, cloud-point generally increases and the Degritter solution has some additives to improve the cloud-point. Tergitol 15-S-9 cloud-point is 60C, so no matter what happens its staying in-solution. If the surfactant comes out of solution, then the amount that can be left as residue can be many times higher than what I calculated above which assumes a completely homogenous solution. So, at 8-ml of 1% Tergitol, it 'may', emphasizing 'may' have a lower residue advantage over the Degritter solution used at 1-ml. At 10-ml of 1% Tergitol, it has the advantage because it adds some detergency. Otherwise, even when rinsing with DIW, standard distilled water will leave a residue, except its <0.001 microns thick, which for records is >10X below the surface roughness of the record surface - i.e. we are below the weeds. But, if you are cleaning semiconductors, with spaces measured in just a few nanometers, the residue from even distilled water which can be ionic is an issue which is why they use ultra-purified water. Neil
@pacvr Can you check my math real quick? Let's say I want to simply use some of my current tergitol 15-s-9 0.01% solution in DIW that I already have made to make the necessary 0.008% solution for the degritter tank. 0.008%/0.1% x 1400ml = 112 mL of what's already in my current spray bottle
Assuming you have a typo in that first sentence, and you are working with a 0.1% solution, then your math is right. But, just keep it simple - add 110-ml of a 0.1% Tergitol 15-S-9/1400-ml. Neil
One further question - is there any reason not to simplify even further and just add 1ml of a 10% solution of tergitol/DIW (created by mixing 1 mL of tergitol in 10 mL DIW)
Thanks Neil. I am going to start with 10-ml of Tergitol and see how things go from there - My thinking, is that the 10-ml Tergitol will be the sweet spot in providing some detergent to the cleaning process whilst minimizing the amount of foaming. If I get excessive foaming for several LP's, then I will reduce it to 9-ml and if still seeing too much foaming, then I will simply switch to the Degritter solution, as I will be losing the detergency with the Tergitol at that point and I may as well use the provided product from the manufacturer. I am still banished from the rest of the house given my COVID situation but will be looking to play with this later in the week (or weekend!) and will report back with results. Thank You! Cheers, Vin.
I assumed you were just going to use some 0.1% from your current mix. Otherwise if you prepare a 10% solution and add just 1-ml, it works as follows: (10%)(1 ml)/1400 ml = 0.0071% = 71 ppm. The 10% is a pretty concentrated solution and getting it to mix will need some time. You would be better off with a 1% solution (1 ml/100 ml) and adding 10 to 11-ml to start. If you get too much foam, it's easier to just back down to 9-ml as @VinBob may do. Otherwise, you know the math, do you what makes its best for you. Neil
Wanted to also add if anyone has found a suitable replacement material for the filter? $5 a pop could add up fast!
I don't think so (and I've actually read all 81 pages of this thread, lol). Its not hard to find a similar material, the issue is finding it of the right size, or being able to cut/mold to the right shape, which as of now, no one has reported attempting to do so.
I found this interesting. Check to about 7 minutes in for his replacement filters. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK_UymrA18w
My Degritter died today after 2,086 cycles and 1 year. I emailed the company in Estonia this morning and they concluded that the transducers failed. They are shipping me a new one. My symptoms were the water in the tank no longer heated up when in use. I am quite happy with how fast they responded.
Good luck with the replacement and great to hear about the excellent support. One wonders if they are improving on those components, or whether we all need to be a little on edge once we hit the 2000 LP mark. I don't have anywhere near 2000 LP's and just over 1000 right now, so it will take a while for me to get there - when I do and if I have an issue, I just hope that I am either still in warranty or the company still exists... Cheers, Vin.
