I'm a musician as well, just like you. I am a drummer and pianist. I like Rush too among others, but I have a wide ranging music taste. Like I said, its all about what you like. No issue here. The point is to enjoy your music and your system. It is a different experience for everyone - engineer or not. Sometimes I get carried away with science. Thats what I get working for NASA all these years. Peace. Be happy. If you are ever in North Alabama, stop by for a jam. I would love to hear you play!
Tempted to buy one. The price is right. I'd like to experiment a bit with DACs. So there are R2R DACs and there are NOS DACs, and they both seem to provide the same benefits to sound quality (more analog-like sound). Which one gives the biggest result? I see there are NOS R2R DACs, some with tubes. Perhaps all of that isn't needed. I imagine, from all the talk online, either approach works and basically accomplishes the task of more realistic sounding tone and dimensionality.
R2R can be either NOS (non-oversampling) or OS (oversampling). Delta-sigma is always oversampled cause that's how delta-sigma works. It takes 1 or a few bits and oversamples that at a higher sampling rate along with noise shaping to get the higher bit depth. A NOS delta-sigma DAC wouldn't really work well.
Wait until I get mine, which hopefully will be within a week. I’m very picky about my sound and like my experience with all the OPPO machines I’ve had I’ll be honest with my opinions on what I end up with. It’s a lot of money for me but hell im getting old and my birthday is in a few weeks so might as well have fun! My contingency plan is this, if the Ares doesn’t float my boat the it’s off to the Sabaj dac, which has the 9038 ESS chip for $422. I do keep an open mind! Beave
Thanks. I guess my question then is; is the sound that NOS DACs are known for a result of not oversampling and using a filter, or is it simply because they are R2R DACs? Maybe it's not that simple. Cool, I look forward to your thoughts. No purchase imminent; very happy with the sound of my CD player, but one day I will try a separate DAC. Definitely not before spring.
Does this DAC upsample? I recall Alpine sold a model 3900 "Fluency" DAC which was nonoversampling so no pre-ringing but-oh the HORROR-was -3 dB at 20 kHz so it kinda fell flat. Now, if it upsampled to 88 kHz, it would have been -3 dB at 40 kHz and nobody would have cared.
Oh I dunno, back in the day there were some quite nice units, granted I was in the automotive space (funny to listen to that stuff in high end listening rooms and surprising how good stuff could sound). At least in 2014 this R2R was state of the art MSB Technology Analog DAC D/A converter and Analog Power Base power supply Measurements . At less stratospheric price points I wouldn't be surprised if delta sigma converters could deliver better measured performance, due to the R2R cost. But I also believe - Everyone has different hearing, and may be more sensitive to some distortions (be they THD or IMD or time) or to other stuff that never gets measured any more like noise modulation, stairstep, or even just linearity. Or *think* they are more sensitive. - Folks get too hung up on architecture, as though it really mattered so much. But power supplies and parts and filtering design and layout and all that other stuff I feel matter as much if not more. - At some point I question if we can really hear the difference. 140 dB dynamic range?* *Hmm. I wonder, is that with a zero bit test? Way back when, companies would program their DACs to mute when they saw a string of zeros, so that test became junk. I started testing DACs using the NAB test disc 1 LSB @ 22.05 kHz track so DACs couldn't mute, then look at the FFT bins. And of course went and picked on hapless competitors who never knew what hit them
I think of the most distinguishing characteristic as no pre-ringing. Pre-ringing is "unnatural" and some folks could be sensitive to that. However I'm not aware of any research done in this area.
It does get confusing and seems to turn into the sort of brain twist that you can get into in a philosophy class. I tend to consider most of a DACs sound to come from the filter used more than the conversion. So listening to differences in DACs is mostly about listening to different filters than listening to different chips. But NOS DACs do away with the oversampling filter so with a NOS DAC what am I listening to? A non-filter? NOS DACs from different companies sound different from each other. What accounts for that difference? At that point my brain goes into a twist that only a philosophy major could escape from.
The new Ares 2 can do both, you have the choice of changing between OS or NOS by pushing a few buttons on the front. The original Ares was only OS. I believe all their upper models have both options.
+1 .. as I understand it no pre-ringing equates to excellent performance in the time domain, something which many seem to be sensitive to. The ability to change between OS and NOS is nice feature on the Ares 2. Would love to hear it myself.
The ability to choose NOS and OS is a nice feature of the Ares II. I thought it was OS only from a review I read, but evidently that was for the first model of the Ares DAC. Here is an interesting article. Seems very logical, his argument being that ringing happens only with poorly mastered albums, and even then it's relatively minor. Archimago's Musings: Audiophile Myth #260: The Detestable Digital Filter Ringing and Real Music... It's interesting theory, but I would agree that how it sounds is what matters most, at least for most of us who are end users and not equipment designers.
That is interesting. Are you suggesting that DS chips create pre-ringing? I've read some discussion about thoughts on pre-ringing from a DS conversion and some designers suggest that it might be an affect of the act of measuring more than built into the converted waveform. In other words, it didn't exist in the actual output while showing up in an impulse measurement. It's all beyond my pay grade but fun to try to understand from the couch. Either way, if it does exist in a DS chip conversion, avoiding a DS chip converter should negate the need for a fix.
My understanding once upon a time was that oversampling introduces the pre-ringing...though come to think of it, maybe it is the filtering? But only non-oversampled filtering can avoid pre-ringing? I have not worked in that area in a long time to remember the exact details, sorry. I wouldn't think that is a measurement artifact because some units have different filter settings and measure with/without pre-ringing in the same measurement setup.
the dac is attending long airplrtw Well here is where we need some solid experience talking. My Audiolab 8300 uses the ESS 9018 chip, with 7 digital filters I can select, including ones with pre ringing, and I’ve got to tell you, I couldn’t, can’t tell any difference between any of the filters, so for me, that throws the pre ringing issue out, it’s not an issue for any 61 yo with hearing like mine. But going back to my recent experience with the ESS 9038 dac, I DID hear a difference between it and it’s brother 9018 chip, multiple times. So with this dac coming My sonic expectations are totally open, I have NO pre conceptions of what I’m going to hear, but I DO know what my reference sound is, and that’s the OPPO 205. This deck will either fall short of that sound, or come close to that sound, or maybe blow it away. I’m totally open to what awaits me. Oh, btw, my Ares is on the plane from Hong Kong and is scheduled to be delivered this Friday! That blows my mind right there. So my reference discs, all cds, are Dave Brubeck Time Out, mastered by Mark Wilder, Johnny A, ‘Get Inside’ which is semi brick walled, but done in a way that a good dac will bring out some nuances I’ve heard before, and Miles Kind Of Blue, legacy edition. After that I might put on some Motörhead, and Judas Priest, especially the remaster of Painkiller! But this weekend should be interesting if nothing else..... Beave
That has a lot of interesting stuff! But mostly reinforces my conviction that the power supplies and analog circuitry are more important than the digital side (presuming ha ha the digital is done well)
Since it gets very cold in the cargo hold, keep in mind it will need significantly more "warm-up time" to sound its best...
I am listening to Kind Of Blue now (Columbia jazz masterpieces edition I believe as it is on my hard drive). IF you have your speakers setup for a good soundstage, the difference between my bel canto and the Ares is really something! I have noticed that sliding your speakers around makes a lot more difference with the Ares in the chain. Probably because the bel canto will always stay rather flat and 2d no matter what you do with your speakers. Total different story with the Ares.
Thanks You Two! If you've followed me posts before you'll find that I actually do keep new gear on for about 4 days to a week. Then I turn it off for around 12 hours and then power it back up again, and depending on what the gear is, I either keep it on 24/7 like my HD radio/amp/preamp or whatever. So This DAC, btw, it's leaving Los Angeles right now for tomorrow delivery, or hell, LA is so close by plane they might deliver it today. But yeah, when I get it plugged in I'll power it up and let it sit for an hour or so then start pumping some digital music to it. I'm impressed they shipped it 3 day delivery for free, if I did that it would probably cost me close to $15 to send it to Singapore. And now time to get to work. Have a good day all! Beave
Hey Bever, can we divert the conversation a bit to the subject of playing brickwalled cd's. Have you noticed any major difference, either pos or negative compared to your SD DAC? I'm very curious to how the r2r deals with the distortion. Beave
Woah, that is fast shipping. Probably they used DHL Express. Mine is arriving tomorrow as well excited to play with it this Sunday. Unfortunately, I can't on Saturday. I have to attend a Marriage Preparedness Class.
those classes are well worth it!! Gave our Marriage a big advantage over others. congrats on both! Beave
