Desperately Need Cartridge Help

If you want dead neutral, get a VM95ML and make sure the phono stage capacitance is 100pf or lower.

The VM500/700 cartridges will have a mild top end lift (around 2dB or slightly more, depending on the specific model). You can flatten that out if you are into tweaking, maybe, via Parallel Resistive Loading. If you don't want to tweak and neutrality is important, skip them entirely.

Grado is a totally different animal and very different from other cartridge designs out there. I am not a fan personally, because they don't meet my performance standards which are admittedly very high. Grados will also hum on your RP3, though might be mitigated somewhat (though not eliminated) through use of something like a Hagerman Humbucker. If you listen to a lot of tame records and don't care too much about tracking and tracing performance, or potential hum issues, then Grado is fine.

Nagaoka cartridges are also a different animal from AT, which much worse economies of scale because they are a small company. For my own purposes I would only consider the MP-500, which uses an older, fatter style of line contact stylus than AT MLs. It is also a very expensive cartridge nowadays - prices have almost doubled since a few years ago. Measurement wise it falls behind what you get from AT as well in a couple areas (namely FR and tracking ability).

 

Thank you for the additional data on Grado and Nagaoka. I can cross them off my list thankfully! Too many choices already.

I think I am leaning towards the Ortofon bronze or AT. The Shure V15 sounds very intriguing but it being out of production makes me a bit wary. On the AT side I'll have to learn about the 95 vs the 500/700 series. As much as I don't want overly bright I wonder if dead neutral might not be engaging enough for me...more choice decisions. From the 500/700 series any thoughts on ML vs SH? Shibiata going to be more bright?

 

Shibata is one of the oldest advanced stylus shapes there is, if not the first major one. From there advanced styli evolved, but some folks like Shibata due to perceived prestige, marketing, etc. Supplier costs are different so they cost more. The ML is a far more advanced cut and came later, one of the last major stylus design advancements, along with the FG and VdH designs. There hasn't been a real new stylus shape since the 80s - lots of marketing talk though.

The 2M Bronze is a cart a lot of folks like, but I'm not much of a fan of the 2M Series in general. Output is often higher than spec'd on these, and if your phono stage is weak and unable to handle it well, you'll know it pretty quickly because you'll hear more surface noise and distortion on hot peaks of loud records. If you really want a 2M Bronze maybe look at getting one from a European or UK retailer as the prices are a bit better. One good thing about the series is that the capacitance requirements may be a little higher than AT, which really needs low capacitance to perform at their best.

RE: neutrality at the cartridge end, I've had and heard lots of cartridges ranging from neutral-ish to not so neutral and have come to value neutrality very highly over time. My advice would be to give it a try if you can, maybe purchase from a retailer where you can do a no questions asked return if you don't like something.

 

Thank you for that reply. I'm not wedded to a bronze at all and to be honest I have a blue and while I enjoy it, it doesn't thrill me. I'd prefer to try a different brand at this point but kept the bronze in the hunt until I can confirm my phono preamp is 100 pf.

 

If you don't love the Blue I would probably skip the Bronze then...let me know what you find out about your phono stage. I'm not sure I would be able to deal with the uncertainty of not knowing the full specs. One reason I'm glad I use an outboard unit where full specs are clearly stated by the manufacturer.

 

Yes, not knowing those specs is a pain! I'll report back once confirmed. At least I know the impedance for sure. Hoping Yamaha gets back to me soon

 

Looking at the A-S2000 schematic, for the US model there is 100pf right after the input connector (UK/EU model uses the different cap shown on input), and then another 220pf at the MM phono stage input. Looks like it uses a cascoded JFET for MM input without feedback (cap marked no-use and not in parts list), so probably low miller capacitance too, so I'd guess not much more than about 350pf or so total for the MM phono input with connector and wiring. Don't know how similar the A-S1000 is, though.

 

This looks the same as my a-s1000 diagram. So it seems it is in the 350 pf range. I found the key that shows which are capacitors but how do I read the numbers? The first capacitor I see after the L input is .1/16. How do I read this?

How does the capacitance effect the cart? Is it storing energy to handle fast transients?

Lastly, if it is 350pf I guess that means no audio technica VM series since they recommend 100-200pf.

 

You have to look on the parts list for some of the caps. The 0.1 uF cap is not on the input, it is between the signal and chassis ground, helps prevents ground loops while retaining a low noise ground. The capacitance forms a resonant circuit with the cartridge inductance and resistance, lots you can read online.

 

Oh, missed that question. The capacitance is mainly just part of a low-pass filter to keep ultrasonic frequencies out of the preamp, and vice versa in modern times, to help keep some of the internal high frequency clock signals from getting out of mixed signal video processors, which is why many of the modern receivers are crippled on their phono inputs with very high capacitance to pass electrical emission requirements and get approvals by the various agencies around the world. Separate phono preamps don't have to worry about the latter concern since they are generally analog amplifiers, so the input capacitance is just for preamp stability in the presence of radio frequencies and other sources of interference picked up on the cables, or the cartridge.

Some companies have moved to instrumentation amplifier integrated circuits for their phono inputs to keep capacitance very low, such as the expensive Sutherland preamps, and the much lower cost Simaudio preamps.

 

Rega Exact. Perfect mid-range.

 

By the time you add in your tonearm wiring and RCA cabling out the back of the turntable you're at, ~450pf possibly. Way too high for most high output carts being made today. That will muck the sound of many cartridges. This is why I don't like most built-in phono stages.

 

This is where I will recommend a Shure V15 Type IV with an SAS stylus. David Laloum over on the Vinyl Engine forums did extensive measurements and presented frequency plots of the original boron cantilever SAS stylus on several Shure cartidges. Of the V15s he tested, he recommended the Type IV, as he determined the optimal loading to be 47K ohm and 400pF - closest to the original Shure spec.

As you know, it's always easier to add capacitance than it is to take it away. Many new receivers/amplifiers that have built-in DACs, USB interfaces, etc. have high input capacitance on the phono inputs to filter out noise from these digital circuits (same for AV receivers). Unfortunately, that makes them a poor match for many of today's high output cartridges. It does, however, make them a better match for many vintage cartridges, which often had recommended input capacitance in the 400 - 450pF range. My vintage TOTL Yamaha A-1000 from 1983 has two settings for input capacitance - 220pF and 330pF. That seems high for modern high output carts, but was right in the sweet spot for many cartridges that were popular at that time. Add in tonearm wire and interconnect capacitance and you were right in the 300pF to 450pF range common at that time.

 

If I can offer a suggestion - the Soundsmith Carmen; Elusive disk has the prior version on sale for $699 Soundsmith Carmen MkII MI Cartridge 2.12mV (Medium Compliance) . There are a number of very positive reviews - just search. It is a very forgiving cartridge, very quiet, and very easy to drive. It has the benefit of being able to be rebuilt (not retipped) for a cost of $199 making it the best value from a life cycle cost. I use this cartridge as my everyday, since it is so cheap to have it rebuilt, and I am very surprised how close it is to a Soundsmith Paua that I also have. The stylus is hyper-elliptical which though not exotic gets the job done.

 

That is a good suggestion. In general I am hesitant to recommend vintage cartridges to most people, for obvious reasons. I think long term if the internal preamp has capacitance that high the solution should be to purchase an outboard preamp with lower capacitance or adjustable capacitance. Lots of options there from reasonably priced to quite expensive.

 

I've been doing a lot of cartridge rolling with various high output MM/MI cartridges over the last two years, both new and vintage, and one thing I have learned is load matching matters. It absolutely does. I have read so many posts where people describe the new Audio Technica cartridges as sounding thin, brittle, harsh, overly bright, etc. Invariably, if you ask the OP what their phono chain looks like, it will include a phono stage with an input capacitance of around 440pF, often an AV receiver with a phono input thrown in as an afterthought. Add in some cheap phono cables and they are running 2.5 - 3X the MAXIMUM recommended capacitance for their new AT cartridge. This happens so often, I even see people refer to the AT "house sound" as overly bright.

That's nonsense. It's a direct result of running the cartridge out of spec - in many cases WAY out of spec. When run as the designers intended (i.e. within spec) the new AT MM cartridges sound beautiful and represent tremendous value. I have great respect for the OP, that he came here, asked the right questions, digested the responses and asked additional questions. Whatever he ends up getting, I'm sure he will be pleased with the results, because he has done his homework before making his purchase. As a result, I do not expect him to have any buyer's remorse. He has also set himself up well for the next step, if/when he decides to dive further down this rabbit hole. He can select a cartridge/stylus that matches the phono stage of his current Yamaha AS-1000 and then later upgrade to an external phono stage, with variable load settings, that will allow him to explore other cartridge options. And he will do so with the understanding of how those load settings impact the sound he is hearing. Perhaps, he will even end up with two tables, like me, with one running off the internal phono stage of his integrated amp and the second with an external phono stage.

For my own personal journey, I started with a vintage integrated amp (Yamaha A-1000) that has multiple settings for input capacitance, added a turntable that also has the ability to change the capacitive loading (Harman Kardon T60), made my own low capacitance phono cables, made some loading plugs and most recently, I built my own phono stage that lets me vary the input resistance, input capacitance and gain. Each step of the way has improved the sound quality of my system and my overall listening enjoyment. Synergy between the phono stage and the cartridge makes a big difference in the overall sound quality of a vinyl listening system. The next step for me, is the exact same recommendation I made to the OP. I have ordered a JICO SAS for my Shure V15 Type IV. I recently tried a new combination of turntable (Yamaha PX-2), cartridge (Shure V15 Type IV), stylus (Kyowa 0.3 x 0.7 elliptical) and phono stage (DIY CNC Phono) . The synergy is the best I have heard. In fact, until I tried this combo, I had pulled the PX-2 out of my system for 6 - 7 months and was getting ready to put it up for sale. I just hadn't found a cartridge that seemed to work well with this table (and I had tried several). As good as it sounds now, having heard other more advanced stylus types on my other table, I know it is capable of even more - that the inexpensive Kyowa stylus, which is a great bargain and very good sounding for the money, is the limiting factor. Having read David Laloum's posts and studied the frequency response plots he posted on Vinyl Engine, I am confident the SAS on my V15 Type IV, with the proper load settings, will sound amazing. I can't await for it to arrive!

 

I have done both - see above. I have several great vintage carts (Signet TK10ML, Shure V15 Type IV and Type V-MR, Grado G2+, Empire 2000E/III, etc.) that are a good match for the internal phono stage of my vintage Yamaha A-1000 and have added an external phono stage that gives me the ability to set the input capacitance and resistance to any values I choose. I am running two tables and enjoying the best of both. This has been a goal I have been working toward for the past 2 - 3 years. I have now settled on the combinations that sound best to me (Harman Kardon T60 with Signet MK10ML running off the internal phono stage and Yamaha PX-2 with Shure V15 Type IV with the external phono stage), but also have the flexibility to try other combinations in the future.

 

Have you thought about Nagaoka MP200 or 300? I have an MP150 and it sounds fantastic. I’m wanting to go to the 200 one day. The 200 gets high marks from many reviews I’ve come across

 

Thank you all for the really great responses. I've learned so much already and it's just a few days in. Obviously I have a long way to go but it sure does sound like my system has very high capacitance. I think I may try the shure with the jico since it appears better matched to my system and then start the process of trying to find a good external phono preamp. Have a lot of research I need to do on that front as I've really not dipped my toes in there yet.

Keep the great posts coming as I am learning with each. Thanks again everyone!

 

For an external phono preamp, I typically recommend the ART DJ Pre as a good starter unit. It has adjustable capacitance (100/200pf), a subsonic filter, and gain trim pot. For the money there really isn't anything better. Then if you want something better I recommend saving up for something really good. In home audition is a must if you are spending $$$ on a nice phono preamp. Retailers like Crutchfield and Music Direct have pretty good audition/return policies. Then there are factory loaner programs like Graham Slee, which is what I did after going through a few different phono preamps. Finally if you have a local good local audio dealer, they may be willing to let you do home audition after leaving a deposit.

 

So you prefer the Art to the Schiit Mani? Is that more because of the extra features or the sound? What do you think are good examples in the 300 to 500 range? Rega Fono? Cambridge Alva? Other?

 

If you have been happy with your Ortofon... you will like the Bronze...

I had a Red and a Silver, and the Bronze is a great upgrade.

 

I had a Mani for awhile and eventually got rid of it. There aren't a lot of things that I would recommend at that price range, but I would say make a short list of features you want and do home audition with the cartridge you plan to use. Overall though I would just recommend figuring out what a "final" preamp for you might be, rather than getting on a treadmill of too many incremental upgrades.

Besides the Art, there are a few DIY kits and plans out there if that's your thing.

 

Rega P2, Groovetracer Reference sub-platter, AT VM95 ML. Sounds good to me. Detailed.

 

I found you had RF issues with the mani. Seems not worth the risk of having that. How about the Vincent pho 8 or Lounge lcr mkiii?