Dismiss Notice
We are rebuilding the search index and other forum caches this morning. Search results may not appear correct until indexing has completed, and the forum may respond a little slower than normal until this has finished.

did Chrysalis use CSG-process? (Compatible Stereo Generator )*

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by chewy, Nov 17, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. chewy

    chewy Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    West Coast USA
    ok i just got this Procol Harum 45 rpm white label promo BRINGING HOME THE BACON....one side is an edit, one side is unedited. the edit is minus 61 seconds of the song. the deadwax on the edit has CSG scribed into it all by istelf, (not in the matrix or whatever, but seperataly...a la "RVG"...)


    the unedited side does not. the edit side sounds mono, but im not good at these things. i could find the deadwax info and type it in if you think that would be helpful, maybe some of you know this single. was not aware chryslis even used csg-- the labels itself have no mention of it....
     
  2. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    US issue?

    1973 is a bit late, but Warner/Reprise certainly used CSG, and they distributed Chrysalis in the US.
     
  3. cencalphono

    cencalphono New Member

    Location:
    Santa Maria,CA
    Yes, Warner/Reprise did dabble in CSG for a short time, and Atlantic/Atco even used it on mono 45's, but A&M was probably the worst offender. Besides the Procol Harum 45, Warner/Reprise also used it on Maria Muldaur and Gordon Lightfoot titles. The largest tragedy was "The Association's Greatest Hits" LP.

    A CSG disc can easily be identified by sight and touch. The record surface will look decidedly darker and coarse to the touch. In stereo, the CSG gives a "dual presence" kind of sound almost mimicing electronically reprocessed fake stereo, but will have definite separation.

    You might have to listen to your record with headphones to better determine if it is really stereo, but it could indeed be mono. You can also play it back through a Dolby surround processor and if there is any difference in the two channels the difference will be sent to the rear channels.
     
  4. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    CSG pressings are just like any other pressings. The surface is no different.

    Note that CSG was used both for stereo releases (2/3 of the studio portion of Wheels of Fire is another example) and mono releases (Suite: Judy Blue Eyes). In the latter case, the stereo mix would be processed with CSG then folded down to mono.
     
  5. cencalphono

    cencalphono New Member

    Location:
    Santa Maria,CA
    I don't know what happenned to my reply post to you, but yes, they are visually and physically easily identifiable from regular stereo records. If you have them, you can do side by side comparisons. Examples are: The Carpenters "Merry Christmas Darling" A&M 1236(CSG stereo) & later pressings #1991 + # 8620-S. If you have access to them, many of the promo 45's by The Carpenters were CSG stereo. Compare them to the commercial pressings which were regular stereo. It's like night and day. Also check out the different releases of Free, "All Right Now" A&M 1206(CSG stereo) and 8550-S(regular stereo), another night and day experience. A&M also released an edited mono version of this record. The copy I have is a Monarch vinyl pressing and it is smooth as glass. The styrene pressings by Monarch and Columbia Terra Haute had a much more coarse surface than the vinyl ones we did at Columbia Santa Maria, although ours were decidedly darker black than the regular stereo or mono versions. I actually have all these records in my collection.

    Other examples of the difference in CSG stereo pressings are: The Fireballs, Atco 45-6569 and The Rascals, Atlantic 45-2634. I have SP, MO & PL pressings in my collection of these.
     
  6. jukeboxexpress

    jukeboxexpress New Member

    Location:
    Fresno, CA, U.S.A.
    lukpac,

    You couldn't be more wrong. The difference between a CSG processed stereo record and a regular stereo record is like the Frank Sinatra song Night and Day. In the same way, a stereo record can be distinguished from a mono version of the same record by sight.

    I never understood the point in those CSG processed mono masters that Atlantic/Atco did. To my knowledge, like your example, S:JBE, I am unaware of a CSG stereo release of this song. Both my promo copies and stock stock 45s are CSG mono. The mono promo version of the CSN LP with the suite doesn't even say CSG on it.
     
  7. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Some CSG 45s I have seem to have a slightly more pronounced groove structure, probably due to the increased vertical (out of phase) content, but others look no different. Cream's Anyone For Tennis/Pressed Rat and Warthog falls into the latter category.

    Unfortunately I don't have Wheels of Fire on LP. That is obviously a mix of CSG and non-CSG.

    The point is that the mono versions were created using the CSG process, rather than via dedicated mixdowns via the multitracks.
     
  8. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    I think the Haeco-CSG process kind of fizzled out around 1970, just as Chrysalis was getting going in the U.S.

    To me, the best way to spot it is by looking at it on a phase scope or by listening in headphones. There's some weird phasiness in center-channel vocals. I never really understood why until I heard some remixed Association tracks years ago, and then I said, "ah -- that's why this record sounded so weird."

    This Wikipedia link explains how to reprocess CSG to remove the out-of-phase problems and correct the recordings with Adobe Audition and similar programs. I had forgotten that the chief engineer of A&M Records invented the process. Yikes...
     
  9. chewy

    chewy Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    West Coast USA
    um, you guys are gonna kill me....but the edit side label actually does say below the ASCAP notice: "CSG PROCESS".....sry.....
     
  10. chewy

    chewy Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    West Coast USA
    i am listening to it now, it seems to be in stereo and when you a/b the sound w/ the mono button every few bars, i notice a differnce.....everything sounds slightly louder in stereo, w/ mono button it still sounds balanced and good. the unedit side has no mention of csg anywhere....(I SWEAR)...thats weird instead of a stereo/mono single, u get with this a csg/non csg single, lol--

    ---reel stereo side seems more "natural" to me. i cant put my finger on describing the different, but the real stereo is more natural, the csg side is more "pumped up".
     
  11. cencalphono

    cencalphono New Member

    Location:
    Santa Maria,CA
    Unfortunately, CSG carried on, according to Wiki, until maybe 1979 on the single "Pop Muzik by M. My filed copy is buried under 5 boxes of 45's so I haven't been able to confirm this. However, I do have a Carpenters promo 45 in front of me from 1977, A&M 1978-S, "Calling Occupants Of Interplanetary Craft" and the edited side is CSG stereo. The flip side is the LP version in regular stereo. What were the Carpenters thinking?????

    If you look at the way CSG was created, doesn't it look kinda like the process for matrix quad LP's? Although a CSG recording has disadvantages when played on a stereo, when you play it back through a matrix quad system, a Dolby 5.1 or Pro-Logic processor, the recording really comes to life. Because of the channel phasing, very little sound comes from the center channel speaker and the normally centered vocal comes out of all 4 surround speakers.
     
  12. cencalphono

    cencalphono New Member

    Location:
    Santa Maria,CA
    Many times on the Warner/Reprise 45's that used CSG, they didn't say CSG but just said "Compatable". In the trail-off "COMP" would be etched in after the matrix number. On the label, the CSG stereo 45's didn't have the traditional "S" after the matrix number. I can't think of the title off the top my head but there was a Gordon Lightfoot and a Maria Muldaur 45 like this.

    Not all the CSG mixes were totally weirded out, some actually sounded like true stereo. The way to describe the sound of a CSG recording would be to describe it as an early version of matrix quadraphonic.
     
  13. cencalphono

    cencalphono New Member

    Location:
    Santa Maria,CA
    The point is there was no point in a mono CSG record. Why? I think only Atlantic/Atco did something stupid like this. A&M didn't do a mono CSG record and that's where the process started.
     
  14. CT Dave

    CT Dave Forum Resident

    Location:
    Connecticut
    I have an ATCO 45 from either '68 or '69, "Mama Soul" by The Soul Survivors that says "CSG Processed Mono Master" on the label. The 45 is near mint but sounds very tinny and shrill. Could be the recording but most Atlantic/ATCO singles from that era sound pretty good.
     
  15. cencalphono

    cencalphono New Member

    Location:
    Santa Maria,CA
    Maybe it's my old ears, but I never noticed much of a difference in the sound of a CSG mono recording. To me, although a mono recording seems to have more punch, they tend to sound more muddy due to, I believe, overloading the two channels of a stereo with the same information burying the higher frequencies. A true stereo two-channel recording spreads the information out allowing the weaker sounds to be heard. How the recording sounds should have been taken care of with the EQ and the mix.
     
  16. Ramos Pinto

    Ramos Pinto New Member

    Location:
    Southeast US
    This is fascinating stuff. Has there ever been an attempted comprehensive list of these masterings?

    The Wiki suggests that it sometimes was used during mixing, but this seems bogus.
     
  17. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Mastering Engineer Your Host

    Why does that seem bogus? Hunderds of songs were mixed in this ****ed up way. WHITE ROOM/Cream, IT'S A BEAUTIFUL MORNING/Rascals, I'VE GOTTA BE ME/Sammy Davis, Jr. and hundreds more.
     
  18. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    2/3 of the studio half of Wheels of Fire, in fact.

    I would agree in hindsight that it doesn't make much sense that they would apply CSG during mixing rather than disc cutting, but...they did.
     
  19. GroovinGarrett

    GroovinGarrett Mrs. Stately's Garden

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Gordon Lightfoot in CSG processed mono:
     

    Attached Files:

  20. Ramos Pinto

    Ramos Pinto New Member

    Location:
    Southeast US
    Imagine you're sitting in front of those Altec monitors trying to make this sound good in stereo during mixing and the signal is going through this phase-distortion matrix. Tough work. Luke understands my thinking that it was logical to mix for stereo and apply the phase-trickery in mastering after the fact. Sorry that this was not the case!

    So if I had a SH mastered cd containing "White Room" and a stock cd containing "White Room", I could likely hear the CSG effect on the stock cd, correct? Your cd would have the recording polarity corrected/repaired.
     
  21. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Mastering Engineer Your Host

    Horrible invention. I curse it.
     
  22. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    I'm not aware of any commercial issue of White Room - DCC Wheels of Fire included - that doesn't have the CSG processing. I'm not sure anybody knew how to undo the process until a few years ago.

    That said, here's a clip of the DCC version, de-CSG'd using Stereo Tool:

    White Room (DCC, de-CSG'd)
     
  23. jukeboxexpress

    jukeboxexpress New Member

    Location:
    Fresno, CA, U.S.A.
    I think that I've seen this one before. CSG mono? What were these boneheads thinking?
     
  24. jukeboxexpress

    jukeboxexpress New Member

    Location:
    Fresno, CA, U.S.A.
    I've got a sealed 180g vinyl copy of this LP and Disraeli Gears also. Both came out within the last few years, I believe. I wonder if they use the CSG mix?
     
  25. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    I would assume there was some unexpected issue with stereo compatibility, but they still didn't want to do a separate mono mix.

    No CSG on DG. While I'm not certain, I would be surprised if any new reissues undo the CSG on WoF.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page