Did Syndication Prints really look this bad?

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by goodiesguy, Jun 13, 2013.

  1. MarkTheShark

    MarkTheShark Senior Member

    That would depend on if there were audio elements recorded on separate tracks to begin with, and if they still had them. Also, if anyone cared enough to do that.
     
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  2. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    Almost all TV dramas for the past 60 years were recorded and mixed on at least 3-track 35mm magnetic film (separate dialogue, music, and effects), and sitcoms often went 4-track (DME + a laugh track). It's possible to remix these to a kind of stereo, but it's basically panned mono with artificially-widened music. If they can get the true stereo music stems -- which do sometimes exist, going back to the 1970s -- they can do a true stereo remix, even a 5.1 mix. It's not always effective: I'm not a fan of the 5.1 remix of the old Star Trek show because I think it's unbalanced.

    Spending the money to remix old shows in stereo can be a considerable expense and take at least a day or two to do. Multiply that times hundreds of episodes... it's a lotta dough.
     
  3. bmasters9

    bmasters9 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Fountain Inn, SC
    So, IOW, you think the sound was better on the original originals of O-R NBC Trek (the episodes as they aired way back when in the 60s on NBC)?
     
  4. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    I also found the Trek remasters to be weirdly unbalanced. Someone went way too crazy with the deep bass in certain spots, and sometimes effects and music drowns out dialog. The novelty wears off fast.

    In sci-fi contrast, whoever did the 5.1 mix for the Space:1999 Blu-rays did a fantastic job. It still sounds like its old self for the most part - nothing distracting, no crazy deep bass, gentle EQ work at most - but clarity seems almost enhanced, and the subtle ambiance improves the presentation instead of distracting from it. It's likely all fake stereo - apart from maybe the music which largely exists in stereo recordings on tape, although I don't know if they used those - but it works without drawing undue attention to itself.
     
  5. Benjamin Edge

    Benjamin Edge Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukie, OR, US
    Not to mention that the soprano of Loulie Jean Norman (on seasons 2-3) was replaced on these remasters with Elin Carlson...

    ~Ben
     
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  6. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    Actually she was on seasons 1-2 originally, wasn't she?
     
  7. Benjamin Edge

    Benjamin Edge Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukie, OR, US
    No. But... she did do the soprano for the main and end title themes for the first unsold pilot episode, "The Cage." Neither one of the two versions of the season 1 theme had her present (at first, we heard Alexander Courage playing an electric violin, as used under the main and end titles on five early episodes, and then it was Fred Steiner playing cello on the rest).

    She was hired back at Gene Roddenberry's behest for the season 2 version of the theme, and she is also on season 3 which was a slightly different version (with the organ more prominent in the mix), because union rules required a new recording each season.

    ~Ben
     
  8. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
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  9. Benjamin Edge

    Benjamin Edge Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukie, OR, US
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  10. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
  11. Benjamin Edge

    Benjamin Edge Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukie, OR, US
    I'm starting to wonder if certain episodes of such Paramount Television shows on ABC (in the 1969-70 and 1970-71 seasons) like The Brady Bunch, Love, American Style and The Odd Couple (1970 TV series), when in syndication, have had their original logos replaced with similar versions due to "mis-splicing"?

    By "mis-splicing," I mean that when Paramount prepped these episodes for syndication, on the episodes involved, they may have accidentally trimmed the film reel a few frames just before the black screen between the end of the Paramount TV logo ID and the beginning of the "An ABC Presentation" ID that followed it on the original network broadcasts. And because they went a few frames too early before that brief moment of black, the original Paramount logo visual thus was destroyed and a similar one replacing it in the exact same spot where they made the accidental cut-up.

    For example, the episodes of The Brady Bunch I can think of that had "mis-spliced" logos before going into syndication included episodes 1, 3, 11, 16, 20 and 22 from season 2. In this montage of Paramount TV logos I assembled, these would be the correct logo visuals for the episodes involved:
    Season 2, episodes 1 and 3 would use the logo with the 1970 copyright stamp (seen at the 0:21 mark)
    Season 2, episodes 11, 16, 20 and 22 (all with the Lalo Schifrin "Color ID" theme) would all have used the logo with no copyright stamp (seen at the 0:24 mark)


    ~Ben
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2018
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  12. goodiesguy

    goodiesguy Confide In Me Thread Starter

    Location:
    New Zealand
    The problem is when they add new sound effects to make a 5.1 mix, like with all the Gerry Anderson shows. I just stick to the original Mono for those.
     
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  13. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    They didn't do that for Space:1999 or UFO. The surround mix for 1999 is unobtrusive. It's what they should have done on all the series.
     
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  14. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    I think the sound effects on Star Trek were original, but they panned them or used reverb to place them in different parts of the sound field. My problem with TOS was that the balance was ****ed and the dialogue is buried in relation to the music & SFX.

    I honestly haven't heard the remixed Gerry Anderson shows -- did they screw those up?
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2018
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  15. goodiesguy

    goodiesguy Confide In Me Thread Starter

    Location:
    New Zealand
    I know they did it for Thunderbirds and I think for a few bits of Captain Scarlet. Pretty sure Stingray backwards is just original mono all the way.
     
  16. cpalmer2k

    cpalmer2k Well-Known Member

    Location:
    South Carolina
    As a new member I'm really enjoying reading all of these memories. I've got a few things to add based on my personal experience. Like most people here I grew up watching "I Love Lucy" and "Andy Griffith" on TBS and other local stations. It's amazing today to look back at those old recordings and see how bad things really were in some cases. I can add a little insight on Viacom's practices in some cases for those two shows.

    Based on my understanding up until sometime in the 1980's when a station wanted to book Andy Griffith for example they were given two choices. They could purchase a "library" of 16mm prints at lab cost or they could participate in the Bicycle Program. Under the bicycle program Station "A" would get a group of episodes, air them, and then send them on to the next station in the list. The process continued as long as the license for the show as in effect. In the late 1980's Viacom remastered Andy Griffith and in the process created new "syndicated" videotape versions of all the episodes, removing the epilogue or ending segments from every one of them to add more commercial space. This is why for most of the 1990's no one saw these on TV at all except for special occasions. Some local stations aired these segments though, and their recordings were highly sought after in the trading circles. WFMY in Greensboro, NC was probably the best of these. They transferred all of their original 16mm prints to Betacam and continued to air TAGS from those 16mm transfers until Closed Captioning requirements forced them to buy the syndicated videotape versions from Paramount. They didn't want to go to the expense of captioning their older versions. They showed the epilogues for every episode, cutting other places for commercials. So, back in the day you could record an episode from TBS and WFMY and then sandwich the two together to get a pretty complete version. When they started doing DVD releases TAGS was transferred to HD but they never made new syndicated cuts of the HD versions. I've read that TV Land is unique in that they get the best masters they can get for their shows and then do their own edits as opposed to using the syndication masters provided. I believe this is true because when TV Land gained the rights to Andy Griffith back several years ago they sent out two promo VHS tapes. One contained the pilot from the Danny Thomas show and the second was the "Opie the Birdman" episode. That episode had a title screen that said "TV Land Master" and then all the run time information, etc. Based on the quality of TAGS on TV Land it appears they got copies of the newer HD transfers and use those for their broadcasts. Most local stations continue to use the older versions though. One local station in our area flirted with airing TAGS for a few months several years ago. Their engineer told me that they used the "Book and Dub" option. They got a complete library of TAGS episodes on Betacam and copied each episode onto an XDCam disc in 720p format for broadcast. They quit airing it after a few months but according to him the library is still sitting on a shelf in case they pick it up again.

    I'll post a similar recollection of I Love Lucy later today or tomorrow. It's history is similar in how it has been treated, but because of the popularity it has gotten much more attention when it comes to restoration.
     
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  17. cpalmer2k

    cpalmer2k Well-Known Member

    Location:
    South Carolina
    As promised I now continue my syndication rant with my second favorite series of the old TV period- I Love Lucy. Most credit I Love Lucy as beginning the concept of actual reruns because they developed a method to efficiency film and preserve it for posterity without relying on Kinescopes like earlier shows (a la the "Lost Honeymooners") had relied on. Lucy was unique though in that the sponsor spots and opening/closing segments had a lot of promotional elements in them. They weren't like Andy Griffith that had the same opening sequences and then a "sponsored by" segment, or a segment with the logo of a sponsor in the closing credits. They were actually part of the opening/closing credits. For this reason when the show entered syndication many of these segments were cut and the openings were changed to the familiar "heart" opening we see today. Sadly based on many written reports they actually cut many of these segments from the original negatives- NOT duplicate copies! Back in the 1980's Columbia House began distributing the entire series on VHS tape. This resulted in Viacom producing new videotape masters to be used for the home video releases. Sadly many of these "masters" were still edited beyond the original versions. Back many, many years ago when DVD was in its infancy Columbia House began releasing I Love Lucy chronologically on DVD. They hired Gregg Oppenheimer, the son of I Love Lucy creator Jess Oppenheimer to spearhead this project. He discussed everything opening back in those days on an old I Love Lucy fan list hosted on a website called bolis.com and later through a Yahoo Group devoted to the same purpose. When they began the DVD project he convinced Columbia House and CBS to go back to the original prints and produce new copies. Initially these transfers were NOT in HD, but they later went back and re-did the entire series in HD based on published articles. He also really put forth an effort to include as many of the "lost" segments that had been cut from the original negatives as he could. All of the major actors on I Love Lucy received a 16mm print of each episode as produced for broadcast. He had inherited his father's film collection and was able to use these prints to include many of the missing scenes on the DVD releases. (As an aside to this, Lucille Ball also kept all of her 16mm episode copies). Many, many years ago I crossed paths with a person who actually managed her collection for awhile and with her permission had made videotape transfers of every episode as originally broadcast for their own private collection. Back in the old mailing list days he was kind enough to transfer four of my favorite episodes from his collection over to DVD for me on one of the very early "standalone" DVD recorders produced by Panasonic. I still have a copy of that DVD to this day!

    The older (cut) transfers were the ones typically sent out to TV stations for syndication purposes. While I know they have transferred the entire series over to HD now I believe the situation is the same as Andy Griffith- they haven't produced new syndication "edits". Stations either have to book the HD transfers and do their own edits or take what CBS gives them. This is one reason it still looks so bad on many local stations today. Unlike TV Land they only air episodes a few times a year so they aren't concerned with quality. They just use what is on the shelf.
     
  18. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    Yeah, I'm 100% in agreement with that assessment.
     
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  19. Benjamin Edge

    Benjamin Edge Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukie, OR, US
    I also need to follow up on my theoretical explanation as to the slightly different Paramount Television logos on these 1970-71 season shows: some of the DVD prints came from the later cable TV rerun masters that ended with the 1995 Paramount CGI "Mountain of Monotony" logo (particularly on The Brady Bunch), which were used in case the original 35mm prints were either not available or badly degraded, and therefore the original logos had to be re-pasted.

    ~Ben
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  20. Benjamin Edge

    Benjamin Edge Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukie, OR, US


    While I understand these old PSAs are intact on the G.I. Joe Complete Series DVD set released by Shout! Factory, where they're placed within the set is not quite right. On the original run, these PSAs were placed just after the end of the final act and before the closing credits, but for the DVD set, they were edited out and became bonus features instead. At least that is what I've read on Amazon.com regarding customer reviews of the DVD box set.

    Also, when the first DVD sets of G.I. Joe were released by Rhino in 2006, the people in charge of remastering added unnecessary special effects and sounds... like the laser sounds during the commercial break bumpers for the season 2 episodes.

    ~Ben
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2019
  21. Benjamin Edge

    Benjamin Edge Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukie, OR, US
    Does anyone remember watching both The Space Kidettes and (Young) Samson & Goliath on NBC?

    If so, weren't the closing credits any different (on the original NBC run) than how we see them today??? All I know is that both of these two Hanna-Barbera cartoon series from the 1960s (first aired in 1966 and 1967, respectively) were later syndicated by The Program Exchange, but in a weird way that is putting the two together as one and also combining them with the Total TeleVision cartoons such as Tennessee Tuxedo and His Tales, King Leonardo and His Short Subjects, and Underdog.

    ~Ben
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2019
  22. Tim 2

    Tim 2 MORE MUSIC PLEASE

    Location:
    Alberta Canada
    Yup, me too, adding anything to it almost always create's sonic issues.
     
  23. MarkTheShark

    MarkTheShark Senior Member

    A friend who was there at the time tells me the versions with the Total TV cartoons were the ones originally aired on network television. Space Kidettes had a brief credit at the end for Go Go Gophers and The Hunter, with the Go Go Gophers music. These also aired in syndication in the 1980s, while the combined Kidettes/Samson version aired on USA Cartoon Express.
     
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  24. Benjamin Edge

    Benjamin Edge Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukie, OR, US
    Yes, because of General Mills, hence why they were paired with the other cartoons both you and I mention that General Mills promoted.

    According to the dedicated Hanna-Barbera Wikia, it was in a standard half-hour format; when aired with the TTV cartoons, the episodes were edited down to 10 minutes. If I know right, if these originally were in fact single-length episodes of about 25 minutes long, they were edited down in syndication as "Act 1" and "Act 2."

    ~Ben
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2019
  25. MarkTheShark

    MarkTheShark Senior Member

    Who knows if that was true or not. Lots of things are on the internet, repeated from books or whatever, and no one checks them out.
     
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