Did the New York Dolls drag gimmick kill their chances commercially?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by FuturisticWorkshop, Nov 6, 2021.

  1. Saint Johnny

    Saint Johnny Forum Resident

    Location:
    Asbury Park
    I had read that contemporaneous 1975/76 article in the Village Voice. It might be posted in this thread. It touches on this.

    I lump the Dolls in with the Replacements and a few other bands (VU, MC5, Stooges, Love, Suicide, perhaps,) that were just so subversive, that they simply would not do any of even the most minor of things, (like interviews or even showing up on time), that would have led to more success or even just some slight mainstream acceptance.

    Both the Dolls and The Placements pissed off any and all equally, and alienated even their most die hard original supporters, and even their close confidant insiders, like managers and producers, simply because they wanted to, and could, and then did with gusto.

    The Dolls and Replacements unspoken mantra seems to me, was "we will be ourselves if it kills US and/or our audience". If we are successful, so be it. Those are our terms.
    Being truly subversive artistic troublemakers was more important to them, than any commercial success.

    Pure Rock n Roll, youthful arrogance and rebellion, taken to it's nihilistic extreme, just for personal freedom and art and music for it's own sake.
    Can't get more "Rock N Roll" than that.

    Ahhh..Ralph and others touched upon this too, a few posts back.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2022
  2. Rose River Bear

    Rose River Bear Senior Member

    Just 'cause you sez so doesn't make it true.
     
  3. Saint Johnny

    Saint Johnny Forum Resident

    Location:
    Asbury Park
    LOL Sez a guy self-named "Detroit Rock Citizen".:confused:
     
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  4. joy stinson

    joy stinson Secret friend

    Location:
    Dickson. Tn
    Possibly….However, I just read a Washington Post article about their recent fiftieth reunion tour. I remember reading how shocking they were in the early days though drag with Mick Jagger, etc., in makeup and dresses and glam were rising in popularity. I only read of them in passing then and didn’t know anything they did.
     
  5. Cool hand luke

    Cool hand luke There you go man, keep as cool as you can

    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Recent 50th reunion tour?
     
  6. Maggie

    Maggie like a walking, talking art show

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    To be clear, there has been no talk of a "reunion" tour, nor could there be considering David is the only one left alive!

    What Joy was probably remembering was an article about Martin Scorsese's upcoming documentary film about David, entitled Personality Crisis and documenting one of his gigs from just before the pandemic hit.
     
  7. joy stinson

    joy stinson Secret friend

    Location:
    Dickson. Tn
    Yes, it’s probably what you mention, the documentary. I tried to find the article again but can’t to get more details but it has to be what you mentioned rather than a reunion. It perhaps was referring to an old concert or anniversary date for a concert or album. Sorry that I can’t find the article again. I’ve had internet trouble for the last two days and quickly scanned the article when first saw it before my internet went down. Sorry.
     
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  8. Comicsanstombstone

    Comicsanstombstone Forum Resident

    Location:
    LA
    The Mary Chain had quite a few "hit" singles - in the UK, at least. 12 top 40, 2 top 10. (Yes, I had to Google that). Did the Dolls have commercial potential? Well, Trash is pretty catchy - I can imagine yer non-sleaze-rock-afficianado whistling that. Granted that the likes of Frankenstein have more, uh, niche appeal. Probably a confluence of major label mishandling, self-destructive tendencies and lack of avenues for mass exposure doomed them. But there are worse dooms than being considered hugely influential and respected by other musicians.
     
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  9. PhilBorder

    PhilBorder Senior Member

    Location:
    Sheboygan, WI
    were they big in NYC? My impression is that they were a band that catered to NYC critics, and just didn't come across that well elsewhere.
     
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  10. ralphb

    ralphb "First they came for..."

    Location:
    Brooklyn, New York
    The largest venues I saw them play in NYC were the Felt Forum (opening for Mott) and the Academy of Music where they headlined and which was sold out. They were playing smaller places like Coventry, Max's, the Bottom Line and Little Hippodrome right up to the break up. I think unless they were opening for a larger act, they played clubs.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2022
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  11. Wild Horse

    Wild Horse Forum Resident

    Location:
    California
    It didn't hurt Bowie.

    The NY Dolls just basically sucked.
     
  12. Cool hand luke

    Cool hand luke There you go man, keep as cool as you can

    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Yea, I figured as much, I read "fiftieth", and it threw me a little, knowing Syl had passed recently. Looking forward to that doc!
     
  13. Cool hand luke

    Cool hand luke There you go man, keep as cool as you can

    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Great post! Exceptional insight, thanks!
     
  14. Wild Horse

    Wild Horse Forum Resident

    Location:
    California
    You're easily pleased.

    But, hey, thanks. I wasn't sure whether sucked or lame summed up the NY Dolls best. I went with the verb.
     
  15. Neonbeam

    Neonbeam All Art Was Once Contemporary

    Location:
    Planet Earth
    According to the new David Johansen interview in MOJO they had their scene in NYC and were quite comfortable with it. "Big"? Probably not.
     
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  16. Cool hand luke

    Cool hand luke There you go man, keep as cool as you can

    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Have you ever listened to anything by them? Personally I find them a lot of fun. Good rock 'n roll. Once upon a time, way way back, I wrote them off as sucking too. But I hadn't really listened yet. What bothers you about them?
     
  17. skydropco

    skydropco Rock 'n Roll Nurse

    Their music was great, too good for 1973!
     
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  18. Wild Horse

    Wild Horse Forum Resident

    Location:
    California
    Yes, I've heard their first album. I find them really sloppy and lacking hooks. I don't like David Johansen's vocals, and the drag thing made them seem like a huge gimmick. Retrospectively speaking, as I was 11 at the time and an Elton John fan. The NY Dolls weren't on my radar.

    Bowie pulled off the drag thing because he had the talent to back it up.
     
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  19. ralphb

    ralphb "First they came for..."

    Location:
    Brooklyn, New York
    To reiterate (again) the Dolls didn't do drag, and their songs certainly weren't lacking for hooks. David's voice was fine for what they were doing, very expressive, and a lot of fun with all his asides and girl group/soul mannerisms. They were sloppy on a bad night, on a good night they were brilliant, and those albums are perfection.
     
  20. Wild Horse

    Wild Horse Forum Resident

    Location:
    California
    I'm referring to drag as they dressed up like women (see below). I'm going by how it would have seemed in 1973. It became pretty ubiquitous in the hair metal era of the 80's.

    I honestly didn't hear the hooks you're talking about, and thought their playing was sloppy. But, it's been a long time since I listened to the album.

    [​IMG]
     
  21. Cool hand luke

    Cool hand luke There you go man, keep as cool as you can

    Location:
    Massachusetts
    You have your reasons for not liking them, but they were certainly talented, my friend. Bowie would tell you that himself. No need to throw that in at the end.
     
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  22. Cool hand luke

    Cool hand luke There you go man, keep as cool as you can

    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Maybe you oughta give it another shot, instead of just sh**ting on them
     
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  23. Rose River Bear

    Rose River Bear Senior Member

    They are sloppy and a lot of the guitar hooks are primitive. One exception is the main hook in Babylon. Play it on guitar and you will see it is unique. Not easy to play at a fast pace as well.
     
  24. Wild Horse

    Wild Horse Forum Resident

    Location:
    California
    You don't know what Bowie thought.

    It's very possible he thought they were sloppy and musically untalented, but entertaining because they were different. Bowie was a showman.
     
  25. Wild Horse

    Wild Horse Forum Resident

    Location:
    California
    I'll give that one a listen on Spotify when I get a chance, out of curiosity, since I know you're a guitarist.

    I don't mind sloppy if there are solid hooks and decent vocals. The Faces, for example.
     

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