Differences in sound quality between digital streamers

Hi,

I’m curious if anyone has noticed any real differences in sound between different digital audio streamers, when used SOLELY as a streamer. That is, you’ve used different streamers through the same DAC, and have noticed differences. I currently have a relatively inexpensive Bluesound Node 2i, and output it to an EMM Labs Dax2X DAC. This DAC has a lot of inputs and so I’ve connected the Bluesound with both a quality coaxial cable and a quality toslink. I can flip between the two inputs with the DAC remote almost instantaneously.

I’m shocked that there is a very noticeable difference between the toslink and the coaxial cables, with the toslink walking away with the victory due to increased clarity and energy. I really, really hate this cliché, but it’s true here - the coaxial sounds like it has not one veil, but several veils, layered on top of the speakers.

It started me wondering about all of the more premium streamers out there - units like the Aurender N10 ($8k) and the EMM Labs NS1. ($4500) Do they sound different if all they are doing is providing the music from a stream of bits as a conduit to the DAC? The EMM re-clocks everything anyway, and jitter so not a concern.

I was in the camp of “it can’t matter,” but then the toslink vs coaxial kind threw in a monkey wrench. If the ones and zeros can sound so tonally different between the same two players, I guess it’s possible that superior processing and connections from a higher end unit could sound better?

 

@Drew769 in a word: “Yes”. I’m on mobile and can’t type a full in depth comparison but rest assured with a DAC like yours differences are definitely (and frustratingly) noticeable. Once you get passed the myth that bits-are-bits and hence all digital is the same.... there are very real differences between streamers. Rather than us try to ‘convince’ you - maybe find a dealer that will let you borrow an Aurender or Lumin or Innuous or Melco streamer and then you can make comparisons feeding your EMM DAC in your reference system. Hint hint: You may even find using AES with the right AES cable is further superior to Coaxial and Toslink

 

Yeah, you should check out the Lumin U1 or U1 Mini. They sound really nice.

JohnK

 

Well I borrowed an EMM Labs NS1 streamer/bridge from my local distributor. I’m pretty floored at how different it sounds from my Bluesound. I mean, it is a $4900 streamer vs. a $549 streamer, but I still thought the whole audiophile streamer thing was more snake oil than fact.

To further prove it to myself, I had my 14 year old daughter sit in my listening room and I played her songs on the Bluesound, and then on the NS1. (Mixed up the order between song selections). Proud to say that she pretty much nailed the differences on every track (basically confirmed exactly what I was hearing). Instruments became clearer and more three dimensional. On a couple of the tracks we noticed one guitar was actually two or three - hiding behind each other on the Bluesound, but unfolded on the NS1. Background vocals gained their own space. Small percussion and traps became holographic. To be clear, both the NS1 and the Bluesound were feeding the EMM DAC2X V2 dac, and all tracks were from Qobuz, so everything was equal except for the streamer feeding the DAC.

 

Why would you post something like this? Now you got me thinking I need to try different DACs with and streamers against my Raspberry Pi.

The quest never ends...

 

LOL! Sorry, and you’re welcome?

 

Yes, EmmLabs have actually managed to make Toslink a useful input. For awhile, I also used Toslink when I had my DAC2 (not X). Anyway, I think your loaner streamer has answered your question, so I'll just add that I'll highly recommend that you try an EtherREGEN from Uptone. That will likely give you an improvement on par with the $4900 streamer--in terms of bang for the buck, that has been my best digital upgrade ever. They have a 30-day return policy, so not much risk in trying it out ...

 

It is often DAC more than streamer as many DACs simply sound better through one input than others. My Chord DACs use different filters depending on the input.

I have not really found much difference between streamers.

 

Thanks for starting the thread, Drew.

I'm also considering a streamer 'upgrade' and am keen to understand differences between streamers and dac inputs.

I have an Exogal Comet dac presently hitched via USB to a dedicated laptop in an adjacent cupboard fed via ethernet. The USB input is recomended by Exogal as being the better of the input choices - and as a laptop is connected I've not had opportunity to stream into AES, Toslink or Coax. The CDP is connected ito AES rather than Coax as sounds better but that maybe my cheaper coax cable. Personal budget is up to £1.5k so unfortunatly lots of above suggestions are above that.

I was wondering if the EMM DAC and/or Bluesond's Toslink imlimentation is superiour to Coax? And when comparing to the N1 what cables to dac did you use?

Thanks again!

 

Hi - intrigued by the EtherREGEN. What streamer / dac combo did you link it too? And are you saying putting it with the Bluesound ups that streamer SQ exponentially? Thanks.

 

Hearing divergence between optical and coax S/PDIF might have something to do with something being broken. "increased clarity and energy" is just not characteristic of one means to S/PDIF over another. In professional applications AES-EBU may be more ideal than optical or coax S/PDIF, since it can permit copy of DMR and SCMS material; but, sound wise, it's indistinguishable from S/PDIF.

 

Maybe your DAC is not good based on what you said, a.k.a sucks elephant behind on coaxial inputs and does 'ok' with toslink. You could keep testing different snakeoil/vulture priced streamers, but, if you keep plugging them into the different inputs on your crap dac, the results will be confounded. The dac will dominate here, not the streamer transport.

 

Optical connections have the advantage of being electrically decoupled from the source which has various technical advantages.

 

At one time, a long time ago, upon introduction of Toslink, pretty much all transmission was 16/44.1 or 16/48; but, a little later came 24/96 and for awhile Toslink distinguished itself as ideal for transmission of that bit and bite rate. Those days are gone now and typically coax, as well as optical can carry 192kHz/24 bit PCM. USB however might be the most versatile carrier.

 

Before I started thinking about EMM’s own streamer to match to my DAC. I was using the Bluesound Node2i connected with both a Duelund coaxial cable and a Lifatec Toslink cable. The remote on the Emm DAC enabled me to switch back and forth between the inputs to instantly A/B test them. The optical was by far more open, spacious and clear than the coaxial. If I wasn’t A/B’ing them, they would both sound great. The EMM DAC reclocks and upsamples everything so jitter is really not a concern.

On my EMM, there is also the AES input which is said to be superior to both SPDIF inputs. There is also a new an improved USB that is also supposed to be superior. My Sony HAPZ1ES is connected through USB and it does sound good. The best input, however, is EMM’s proprietary optical input with is not the same as Toslink. It’s essentially an I2S input. That is the key advantage to using the EMM NS1 or one of EMM’s transports (TSDX) with their DACs - you get to use that I2S connection.

 

Uhhh.... I can assure you there is nothing wrong with an EMM Labs DAC (any of them). And who said anything sounded bad? Quite honestly, nothing sounds bad through this DAC. The point of this thread was just that I’m surprised at just how much different a higher quality and better matched streamer can sound over my stand by Bluesound Node2i. There is nothing wrong with the Bluesound, especially at $549. It’s a steal.

The EMM optical connection is not a regular Toslink. It is an I2S connection, made with a glass optical cable and an RS232 cable.

 

Just using the streamer portion with a common DAC, you will hear a difference. I’ve tested quite a few streamers and they do not sound the same. So much for mere 1’s n 0’s.

 

I'm very careful with generalizing with hifi in general, and network aspects in particular. You can see my digital chain in my profile but what you can't see is that I run EoP from the router to the EtherRegen. That is, Internet in -> router -> TP Link EoP converter -> electrical installation -> TP Link EoP -> 15 m ADX Cat6 Ethernet cable -> EtherRegen. So running the connection through the electrical installation may mean that my system benefits more than other peoples' systems. However others have found equally big improvements: UpTone Audio EtherREGEN Review and Comparison Since Uptone have a 30-day return policy, it is pretty risk-free to try it.

 

I don’t want to ramble on like a digital expert (I’m not), but I do know that EMM claims that, especially with the clock in this DAC, there should be little difference between any of the inputs. Anecdotal “evidence” suggests that the pecking order is EMM Optilink, then Toslink, and then the others. The first option is only available using an EMM streamer or transport. I suspect that the differences In hearing have more to do with the outputs of my $549 Bluesound than the DAC, but neither is bad or broken.

 

I had a DAC2 (not X) and later a Meitner MA1. In my system, EmmLabs’ claim clearly didn’t hold up. For a while, I used Toslink with the DAC2 but later I got better sound using AES/EBU from HiFace Evo. Then after having switched to the MA1, USB was clearly a better option. And the DAC was anything but immune to the computer being used.

 

It certainly sucks to learn something new about audio equipment, because anything you learn is an opportunity to spend money.

Even though it would have been easier to get a streamer-DAC, I decided to go down the dedicated streamer route to avoid having to sell an entire component should I find either a streamer or DAC that sounds better than what I have now. (TP-Link RE230 WiFi Extender > Supra Cat 8 Ethernet cable > Pro-ject Stream Box Ultra S2 > Audioquest Jitterbug > Phasure Lush USB cable > Denafrips Pontus II DAC)

I think you are in the same position as I am with a relatively inexpensive streamer that MIGHT be worthy of an upgrade. If I do consider other streamers at some point, I would bring my tiny Pro-ject streamer to a shop and do a head-to-head comparison which reduces the impact of room acoustics and ancillary components from the comparison.

The other way to look at this is when you have at least $2k burning a hole in your pocket, you know what you could spend money on. In the meantime, enjoy your system for what it already does for you. There's always something "better" in audio equipment.

 

Me tinks this a coxial vs toslink issue, not a streamer issue?

 

I think I confused people in my first post by mentioning the Toslink vs coaxial. That comment pertained only to the Bluesound.

The EMM Labs NS1 is connected via their proprietary Optilink which uses an optical cable and an RS232, but is an I2S connection unlike regular Toslink.

 

Just curious if you swapped them (if you could) to tell the diff....

 

Was your MA-1 a V2? Supposedly the USB input is dramatically better between the V1 and V2 versions.