Discogs seller refuses to help

Are you practicing chastising people for when you have children? Because your post was sad and unnecessary.

 

Nope. I simply don't think disagreeing with the actions of another member is either "sad" or "unnecessary". If I bought an item from someone on Discogs, my contract is with them, not with the original label, or with whomever that person bought the item from themselves.

Still, if we're talking "sad" and "unnecessary", then perhaps you could re-read your own post and ask yourself, "what have I added to this conversation"..... just saying. Perhaps you're practicing indignation for no good reason? It is, after all, an outrage culture these days, even if the matter doesn't actually address or affect you......

 

You’re incorrect. You should read what Goldmine has to say about buying and selling sealed collectible records. If the buyer unseals it, then that’s on the buyer.

 

If its paid with Paypal, their ruling in any particular case trumps anything Goldmine may have to say.

 

I understand that Paypal favors buyers in the event of a dispute.

That has little to do with the Goldmine standard setting the baseline expectations between buyers and sellers, though. The buyer I was responding to doesn't know those rules and therefore might submit a Paypal dispute unreasonably. Though he may win with Paypal, he could expect negative feedback on Discogs.

Seriously, people, read and understand the Goldmine standards. Live by them; they aren't hard. https://www.goldminemag.com/collector-resources/record-grading-101
Scroll down to the section on sealed records.

 

In the instance of a potential seller offering a 'sealed' LP (even if it's, say, 5 decades old) acquired through an estate sale, or if inherited through a friend or family member, etc., then the seller shall be held responsible (or has no recourse) for any defects / warping / non-fill, etc. after a sale?

Why would anyone (selling), other than a business who would secure multiple copies, put themselves up to such a crap-shoot … only to be always be responsible for unsatisfactory results? Isn't the mere purchase of a rare or HTF LP a crap-shoot in itself?

If I don't understand properly, then someone please instruct me with the proper information (and I don't mind some education on this matter).

 

I'd be interested to see what they say - do you have a link to a particular article/quote? I mean - you're telling me that if I buy a sealed album - then it does not matter if there is a record inside or not, whether it plays, or whether it is fir for purpose - because Goldmine says so. I'm willing to believe you, but I'd have to read what they say. I admit, it'll take some convincing - if I buy something from you, then my contract is with you. If the item is sealed, I don't consider it "sealed so it doesn't matter what's inside".

Frankly, the very idea is absurd, imo. But hey, link me up.

 

Link above.

 

Goldmine has nothing to do with the baseline expectations you talk about, though. Those expectations are

Buyer: I got what I paid for
Seller: I sent what the the buyer paid for

90+% of transactions go through on that basis just fine. When there's an issue and the item is paid with Paypal, they will rule. Goldmine is irrelevant, as is the "threat" of negative feedback, like anyone cares.

 

If I buy from you on Discogs, I'm buying from you - not Goldmine. In the link you gave, it says this about sealed albums:

"Still-sealed albums can — and do — bring even higher prices than listed.

However, one must be careful when paying a premium for sealed LPs of any kind for several reasons:

• 1. They may have been re-sealed;
• 2. The records might not be in Near Mint condition;
• 3. The record inside might not be the original pressing or the most desirable pressing;
• 4. Most bizarre of all, the wrong record might be inside. I’ve had this happen to me; I opened a sealed album by one MCA artist only to find a record by a different MCA artist inside! Fortunately, I didn’t pay a lot for that sealed LP. I would have been quite upset if I had!"

Having read that - where does it say that you shouldn't stand by the product you sold? This merely says sealed albums may have issues. Okay. But then, I'd not be blaming you for damaging the record, I'd be saying it's your responsibility to put it right (if you can), or refund. I think you're confusing things here. One is grading - the other is sales law.

Put another way - if you sell me a bag of gold, and I open the bag and find it's full of coal, I don't think you could argue, "Well man, you shouldn't have opened it."

 

Uh, no. You're the one who's obviously seriously confused. There's no "sales law". It's a website dealing with international markets from individuals ; not businesses.

You're honestly making yourself to look unbelievably foolish, here.

 

I won't buy from you - so at least that's sorted.

As for common sense - I don't buy from crooks and dishonest traders, so I think we're both happy with the outcome.

 

I see I've touched a nerve. But no - you're completely wrong. If I bought from you, I'd clearly need to get my refund from Paypal, you can argue it out with them. I have no doubt whatsoever I'd get it. You may think I'm foolish, but my opinion of yourself is far lower, believe me.

 

You have a, shall we say, distorted view of the world. Mint means sealed ; it does not guarantee the condition of the record.

The crook is the one who buys a sealed record when that is exactly what was delivered and tries to take away the value of the record by opening it and returning it to a seller who is not a business. That's a weasel of the highest order. Congrats.

 

You've just announced to everyone on this board how underhanded you are. I hope you'll one day land on a problem buyer just like you.

As for your opinion of me, it'll be a cold day in hell when I care about what a dishonest weasel buyer thinks of me.

 

You know, I have complete trust in the common sense, decency, fairness, integrity, and honesty of the (all but one, apparently) fellow members on this forum. If they want to judge me, then so be it. If they want to judge me based on what I've written here - then I welcome it. If they think less of me, well - when it comes to matters like this, that's just how it is.

But I don't mind people knowing - if I sell you something, and through no fault of the buyer there is a problem, I'll gladly refund the purchase. I'll take up any complaint or concern I have (and loss) with the person *I* bought it from. That's on me. I consider this a matter of character and ethics.

And let's be honest, you don't care what I think of you, and I don't care at all what you think of me. And?

This is comedy gold. They're a crook for opening a record they bought, and actually trying to play it. Because..... reasons. Seriously?

Regardless - I'm not going to bicker all evening with someone with whom I have little in common. You do you, I'll do me. We won't be meeting as buyer/seller, but if we do and there's a problem you won't help resolve, you'll be hearing from Paypal. If you don't like that, well..... yah know. I won't be replying to you any longer, as I'm sure we've each said enough already.

ps: For the record, I've NEVER had this issue when I've either sold or bought anything.

 

How To Grade Items

I can't find anything there that allows sealed items to be in worse condition than described.

If an item is graded M/M it has to be in M/M condition, whether it is sealed or not.

 

How would you know it is mint if it was sealed? And if you opened it and it wouldn't be sealed anymore thus negating condition.

 

I went back in the thread only to find we're going in circles. Good luck to you all.

 

I think the core issue is that it has because the norm to grade a sealed record as M - yet no one really knows the condition of what's inside - there could be pressing flaws, it could be warped, or even contain the wrong record. As a seller, you're making an assumption that that's the case because it's factory fresh and not been opened since it left the factory. As a buyer, knowingly buying a sealed record graded as M, you're also buying into the assumption. . .or at least accepting the norm that a factory sealed record is graded as M. If a buyer rejects that last sentence and says "No, I'm guaranteed a perfect record", they're just not thinking it through. Because if they did, they'd have to reject any grade of a sealed record because it's impossible to grade by definition.

Goldmine defines a Mint record as "These are absolutely perfect in every way. Often rumored but rarely seen, Mint should never be used as a grade unless more than one person agrees that the record or sleeve truly is in this condition." By that definition, a sealed record can never be graded as M because it requires multiple people to agree to that "absolute perfect" standard.

The solution would be to have another grading category of "Sealed", but that's not a Goldmine category and not supported by discogs, eBay, etc. So we fall back to using M, for better or worse. And as sellers will sometimes state in their terms and conditions that sealed record are graded as M, but can't be assured to be M. I'm not sure what the other choice would be - grade it as G or P covering you for the worst case scenario? Doesn't seem right either.

It's a different issue if you suspect it's not actually factory sealed and has been resealed somewhere along the way. If you suspect that, you shouldn't open it and request a refund. At least in that case, you're preserving the item as you received it.

The issue is that, as a seller, you know exactly what you're selling with an unsealed record and can take some preventative measures to attempt to head off fraudulent buyers by photographing the condition, maybe even getting an unaffiliated 3rd party to witness what you're sending off. Whether that carries enough weight with eBay, PP, etc, who knows. But if the buyer files a fraudulent claim, you at least know it's a scam because you know what you sent.

But with a sealed record, as a seller, you don't know if the buyer is taking advantage of the very fact that it is sealed and using that as cover for fraud. To be fair, a seller can also use that as cover, and (for example) sell a sealed record that they accidentally left in a hot car and know is warped to pass that burden on to someone else. So there's risk on both sides.

But if we're talking about an old, out of print, limited edition. . .something not readily available and selling at a premium both because it's rare and because it's sealed. . .it doesn't seem right that a buyer can file a claim that their now-unsealed record doesn't adhere to the strict grading of M knowing that there's no way for anyone to know what's inside a sealed sleeve.

 

How fresh can it be if left the factory say 25 years ago?!
I would not assume that.

I have never sold a sealed record but this feels like the right thing to do.
Rate it G/P/F, state it is sealed and price it as a sealed record regardless, stating something like "genuine sealed records At such I can't predict the grade. Buy at your risk"
If the buyers find a bad surprise they can't shoot the 'not as description' bullet. It was sealed when they received it and it should really be broken in two to say that it was not graded correctly.

The problem is that sellers like to grade sealed as Mint to help visibility and lure in more potential buyers.
They do so at their own risk as much as I am concerned.
If they sell a Mint record I expect it to be mint. Sealed or not. Back it goes if it isn't.
Which is Why I never buy sealed records.

 

As a seller I don't know the condition of a sealed record. But if I use a specific grading for it I have to guarantee it.

 

That is a fair assessment.

Offer the item as sealed but do not offer any guarantee as to it's condition. Therefore the ball is in the buyer's court. Makes sense to me.

It boils down to the honesty of both parties.

 

Let me explain the can of worms this truly is.

If I were unscrupulous, I could buy the home equipment to seal albums. I could then go on the look out for album covers in good condition, regardless of the condition of the album inside. In fact, I wouldn't even have to care whether it's the correct album for the cover. I'd then put the horribly damaged album into the sleeve and seal it. I'd sell it as "Mint", because hey, who knows what the condition the album is - it's sealed right? I then sell it for top dollar.

If the buyer does not open the album, then I win. If they open it I say, "Hey, you're a crook, you shouldn't have opened it!"

For me, that's simply absurd. You're inviting fraud into the system, and actually supporting it because there is no way you could possibly know if you've been cheated unless you, essentially, invalidate the deal by breaking the seal.

Seriously - in the sale of sealed items, which side of the sales process do you think is more likely to be acting fraudulently? Is it the person asking for top dollar, or the person paying top dollar?

I appreciate some feel differently, and as always it's buyer beware. For me, sellers who want to maintain their integrity would have to be very clear in their sellers comments. For example, explicitly state they are selling the object, not the actual album. Stating that they don't accept returns on open items regardless of what is inside the sleeve. Stating they are not grading the album itself. Stating they offer no guarantee's whatsoever on the Vinyl inside, etc. After all, there's nothing wrong with being honest and upfront, right?

Otherwise, the seller is simply lacking integrity, imo. Sorry if that offends some of you. But if you feel strongly about this, what's the harm in being clear and explicit?

If the opposite opinion is the norm in selling sealed product, and it's the norm that the seller doesn't stand behind what they're selling at top dollar, then I can only say it's a sad sad sad state of affairs, and anyone buying sealed product needs their head testing. IMO.

We could all concoct scenario's where one side or the other is unscrupulous, but it's not very real-world, is it? Do we have any cases here of this happening? I'm sure there are some, but the real argument here isn't about grading of the actual Vinyl. As I see it, it's about the grading not applying to the actual album at all. So if I see a sealed album graded as Mint - then I think it's fair and reasonable to assume the grader is talking about the album. If not, the grader should be explicit that they do not grade the contents, and do not accept returns regardless of the condition of what's inside. Do that, and the buyer can be well-informed and make their decision. Otherwise, it's shady, imo.

If I buy a classic Roll Royce car with tinted windows for top dollar, because it's shiny, looks in great condition and is described as fully working - I don't see how there's an argument for my not returning it if I open the door and it falls off, and then sit in the car and find someone has replaced the plush interior with bicycle seats. I don't understand how anyone can claim "Well, I was selling the object".

See, if I buy Bowie's Low, sealed, described as Mint and at top dollar - I'm not buying the cover and shrink wrap. I'm buying a Mint copy of Bowie's Low. If the album isn't Mint, then yeah, I have an issue with it. I think most people would.

Let's say I buy a rare album, sealed, for $1000. I open it, and find that the album is by another artist. Some in this thread think this is my fault, because I shouldn't have opened it. Now I've spoiled the value. Whereas I'd say, the thing never had any value - it was all a lie.

 

Exactly. My point all along. The seller should be explicit and clear that they offer absolutely not guarantee on the album itself, and will not accept returns regardless of what's actually inside. Then we can make an informed decision.