Discussion in 'Marketplace Discussions' started by AutomatedElectronics, Mar 27, 2019.
I've attempted to discuss it with site users, and that wasn't very productive either.
Like life itself it's very dependent on who the user is. Fortunately most encounters I've had have been on the positive side.
First, I am not allowed to log in to do anything other than look at entries. Second, if there are errors, I am not allowed to correct them. There may have been some redundancies, but any entry I made was based on actual record(s) I have in my possession which I also provided pictures of. I followed the listing format, exactly, of other listings already made and not mine. Many of the errors attributed to me were already there, made by someone else, so they were not mine to correct. Third, because I am not allowed to do anything but look, I can't ask for any kind of vote. Fourth, I am not allowed to contribute as I don't have any privileges.
The members who are preventing me access to do anything are definitely acting like a bunch of kindergartners. I have invited them to call me or to do anything else to validate my creds. I have been acknowledged in numerous collecting and related music magazine publications over the years.
GS do you have voting rights?
Myself, I have pages of discussions with site moderators, but to no avail. Nothing has changed.
@AutomatedElectronics a PM for you...
Yep!What you describe is correct. will quote only the last paragraph fore my comments:
We do agree on most arguments.
But the philosophy of Discogs is not what we understand as a database for music recordings in general but only a database for the physical attributes of a release. The content is the runnerup and does not belong to the "minimum requirements" for a Discogs submission and is unimportant. That means 2 copies of the same record with a slight difference in the layout mean 2 different Items. Every visible difference creates a new Item. For collectors a real "b......t" because the fan (like me) is interested in the content. Sometimes a sticker is a difference but not in any case.
To sum it up: some aspects are useful but the low level of minimum requirements for a submission make Discos in the end to a a growing incomplete database with limited aspects for a collector but OTOH to an Instrument for making cash for a few "Eggheads" . The mass of members create with the sum of data at no costs for the owners the fundament. Thats the situation IMHO.
Membership is free. If you are a member you can do everything except you have landed in CIP
As a member for example you have among other rights the right to do the following_
- If you see wrong data you can write a message to change it to the OS in the submission notes
- System will grant you after a certain period with a good average of votes in your favor (lets say between 3,8 to 4.0) voting rights. BTW I got my first voting rights with more than 8.000 rank points and left with a total of 37.000 rank points.
- As long as your submission activity is low you will not fall in that cathegory for obtaining voting rights because its implemented in the system
- Changing data is allowed at any time for everyone however condition is: membership!
- You can build up your own collection with somer Indices of your preference
- For contributing to Discogs you dont need privileges but only a membership.
You can send me a link to one of your submissions and I can check it when I have the vinyl or CD.
You can also log in to Discogs and search my profile but I am mostz active in the book section only.
Hope this helps a bit
I listed a 9-CD compilation a couple of years ago which took me almost a week to type up - there were extensive notes I added (which I didn't necessarily need to) to the very long track listing.
A few months later a 'regular' attacked me for not categorising the composer correctly/mis-capitalising some parts and went on a points scoring exercise down marking all the contributions I made.
I could tell just with his comments that he was angry... life's too short so I didn't even reply and left him to it
Some members are very pleasant though So in summary - if you're listing classical music - get everything right, or you'll be shot down like a lead balloon
you've brought these sentiments up here and on discogs, but you seemingly continue to miss the point that your knowledge of the industry, etc. may be helpful in a general sense, but discogs isn't your database. you don't get to make up your own rules because you disagree with theirs. i don't know what you mean by you "can't log in". what you're describing doesn't make sense unless you've actually been banned from the site for abusive behavior. it takes a lot for that to happen.
anyway, you can choose what you want to believe but contributing/editing/using the site isn't as impossible as you describe, nor are their evil entities out to get you. if you'd really like use your deep knowledge to contribute there again, i'd be happy to connect with you on that site as i've looked at your contributions in question in the past. if not, well i guess you can keep claiming conspiracy against you if it helps you feel less frustrated about their admittedly challenging process.
i do, yes.
That sort of is the point. Their rules are stupid and arbitrary, and discourage knowledgeable people from sharing their knowledge, thus defeating the purpose of a crowdsourced database.
sorry you feel that way.
i find the database and marketplace valuable to me and if i gotta follow their rules, to use them, so be it.
I find them valuable, too, but they would be more valuable with more data.
I have a lot of critics to make but it is qite normal when you want to use a public sourced database you have to follow their rules as idiotic they might be
and not your own (which I regret but cannot do anything against it).
As @GentleSenator mentions the site has also its advantages which can be used for my own benefit and thats what counts.
Peace to all.
Why do you think that people don't know this? The point is not that you have to follow the rules, it's that the rules (which are worshiped like the Word of God and generally considered to be more important than the actual data in the database) are arbitrary and nonsensical and discourage knowledgeable people from contributing. That makes the database less valuable than it should be.
I would say many people don't know it because they behave like they don't know it.
There are times they have made exceptions and it's after they discuss the issue in forums e.g. the VU & Nico covers, the butcher covers. But generally they are consistent.
Compared to the few that find it nonsensical and arbitrary, more people fine it otherwise and just get on with it because it is a valuable database and it actually works quite well, especially when you considered it largely user managed. Without the controls, which again, are rather consistent, the place would be a mess.
Of course there are times when members there are a bit much but generally I find most of the complaints are from people who refuse to abide by the rules because they can't bothered or because they've decided their way is better.
You're comment that their rules defeat the purpose of a crowdsourced database is rather ridiculous because it clearly isn't the case.
Generally it goes like this:
Member adds new entry or new info to existing entry incorrectly.
Member is told by other members they've made an error and they should read the rules and make necessary changes.
Member freaks out accuses long term members of being such and such and if they don't want their info..." well fine I just won't add it, your loss. hahahaha"
So of course discogs is horrible and useless, etc, etc
That pretty much sums up 99% of what happens in these cases.
Doesn't take much to tick off some people to a massive degree, but IMO, despite the knowledge we might miss out on, the membership base is better off without these types of people because dealing with them is too high a price to pay for useful knowledge, which isn't proprietary anyway. So it won't be long before someone else enters it into the database, assuming any of it is of use.
I looked into the examples posted in this thread and pretty much in ever case the member posting the information was not only incorrect but also the first to pull out an attitude towards other members after being told they made an error .
I can agree upon that but that does not help a crumb for my or your Intentions.
The learning curve for Discogs data base can be a tough and long haul but once it sinks in and you do comprehend the how to do things it's a valuable resource. Trust e on this having been on the CIP bad boy list twice, but was able to redeem myself with the help of staff members. As long as you communicate diplomatically and don't force information you believe to be correct, and in fact it might well be, you don't end up on the CIP even with some of the members who can seem kind of rude on occasion.
What is the CIP?
You have no way of knowing that, because you have no way of knowing how many people poke their head in, try to use the database, and leave, frustrated.
I very well realize that Discogs is not MY database. It is a database made up of many contributors. I DON'T make up my own rules or even seek to change them, but I choose to follow established rules and guidelines. When such rules are in question and are not clear to me, I follow through the examples of others. When a member had questioned my entries, in response, I posted the actual rules/guidelines which supported my position. Some of the items brought up by other member which were in question, had been there before I even got there. Some demanded that I correct the errors and items in question, but as I have stated previously, because I didn't make them initially, they were not mine to change.
By stating that I haven't been able to log in, I am stating that my log-in information no longer works. I am not aware of being banned, but it was stated to me that my account was blocked for "a mix of aggressive behavior and incorrect updates & merges". There has never been an indication of being banned in any of the many conversations I have been involved with.
I am a passive person by nature and would never want to do something which is incorrect. I am a follower of rules. By aggressive, maybe they meant that when questioned, I would cite the established guidelines and rules supporting my position. As a follower of rules, I will stand up to accusations of not following them. I would never intentionally submit incorrect information and if I ever did, I would be more than willing to remove and/or correct it.
As I have stated before, my additions and corrections are more than just from me. The information and pictures which I have submitted are based on, in this order:
1). Records in my personal, physical collection(sometimes with multiple copies).
2). My personal experience, sometimes behind the scenes.
My whole purpose of contributing information is to provide and fill in missing information, again, from my personal physical collection.
I would appreciate any help with being allowed to contribute again.
I don't think that there is a conspiracy against me, it all seems to have come from a single source, Diognes_The_Fox, who has included the name Brent in our many communications.
Thanks for your lengthy contribution. There might be some misunderstandings on both sides.
Had myself many discussions with "Diogenes" or "Brent" (when her is discussing with members). He is the big numero 1 at Discogs and active in many fields. So it can be that he has not the time to deal with ervery argument of yours. What I kow he is strict on the Discogs line but also accepts criticism.
a) It is highly risky to touch an Item because there is the [silly IMO] rule that you are responsible from the moment on for the Item even if faulty data do not come from you.
b) If you get a request to change data on your own sub you have the choice  you can do it or  you can bring it to the "advanced forum" and discuss the topic and then a majority vote will decide whether to change or not
c) you can always ask "support" for help
d) If you have another member as kind of "friend" there he might call "Support" to investigate in your matterr again.
In my case my voting rights were suspended. In my discussions with Brent that this was not correct there was no agreement about that measure. So I left.
Because I have also an extensive DOWN BEAT collection I rejoined as member of the book section there which is possible only when you have also an original DISCOGS account. But my contributions to the jazz LP section are very rare.
My suggestion for you (as far as your membership can be reactivated) is: never touch an Item which is not from you. Just mention in the notes that a change is needed acc your opinion and describe it.
For your own submissions try to docuiment as much with good pictures
I have some good friends there who might help to clear your personal case. Is your namer at Discogs the same as here? You can PM me.
Discogs Forum - CIP
[paste:font size="5"]votes that show inconsistencies (for example, 'Needs Major Changes' or 'Entirely Incorrect'). The goal is to give these users tools to improve their submissions, and at the same time protect the database from incorrect submissions. The CIP should not be seen as a negative thing in itself, or a bad mark against the user. It is quite common for new users to find themselves in the CIP who may simply need to brush up on general guidelines. The CIP can also be useful to spot people who are perhaps abusing the database.
21.1.2. The CIP considers a user’s voting practices, quality submissions, and adherence to the guidelines. Once on the CIP, the user will be limited to a total of three contributions waiting for votes at any one time. If the user has more than three contributions currently waiting for votes at the time they are placed on the CIP, these will remain in the database. Users on the CIP will not be able to submit any more until they are voted on. Users on the CIP are still able to edit all their pending submissionsthat have not been voted on. A user on the CIP will be encouraged to make quality submissions, and receive votes on them ('Correct', for example) to exit the program.
You're right, I was following on from some of the topics touched on in more recent posts, but then I went back to your original post and it was about how you found it really unpleasant how people on Discogs were jumping down your throat. Apologies.
Please read the CIP guidelines quoted above in my posting.Then you will understand what to do to get outof CIP.
Separate names with a comma.