Dishonest Critical Comments about Hardware?

Just wondering if there are dishonest negative, critical comments in forums to protect self interests.
recently suspected this while researching a new purchase.
this does a disservice to people who have no choice but to rely on word of mouth reviews for purchases.

 

These sort of ideas are usually revealed by a near total lack of development. A simple dismissal based on some self-validated authority is nothing.

 

When you say "protect self interests," what are you referring to?

Seems to me many people - here and in life - tend to have negative viewpoints about a lot of things. So I'm not surprised to see them expressed on a music forum, but I'm not sure I think it's anything more than opinionated people being opinionated.

 

In general, when I'm looking for information through forums such as this one, it's about how something works (or doesn't work) and not about how it sounds. Collecting factual information is important to me (and in one recent case here, was very important to me) but with all due respect to the membership (not just here) I've pretty much built a solid filter wall when it comes to people's opinions on the characteristics of what they are hearing. There's too many elements at play to truly trust a particular opinion, and even with a very large sample size, there can be a lot of skewing in one direction due to a "follow the pack" mentality. "Dishonest" comments when it comes to functionality are pretty easy to identify. However "negative, critical" comments that are based on a factual evaluation of functionality can be invaluable when it comes time to make a purchase - whether the reviewer has an axe to grind, or not.

That's the hardware side.

On the music side I really like learning about performers / bands and their releases that I've not known about before, but I can't imagine trusting anyone's opinion when it comes to deciding whether I will like that recording or not. I know it's all in the site's demographics, but my only disappointment with the music side of things is the same repeated emphasis on acts from long ago, and far too little on new and emerging ones.

Jeff

 

What would be ones reason to protect their self interests? I could see if one was a dealer or selling a component but other than that it would be more to justify their purchase. After over ten years on SH I've come to know those that are honest in their assessment of gear. Even then it's on the individual to do as much research as possible in regard to a components quality and musicality.

 

There's a whole industry around paid bad reviews driven by hurting competition. If I were selling product X and Y was a competitor, then I'd get fake accounts to go on Yelp or Amazon and drop bad reviews on Y. We know audio forums are full of promotion, so it's no stretch to think people could be offering false bad reviews.

 

Of course they're out there. If you join one and realize that they are dishonest don't be afraid to cancel your account there and tell the guru the reason. It won't stop it but at least you won't be a part of it. If I discover a dishonest site praising a few certain brands at the expense of others, I don't buy those brands either. So I still have to go to a site like that, as a guest, just so I know what not to buy! I always read everything I can before deciding on equipment, even if it takes days.

 

I’ve noticed these glowing reviews when it comes to music releases. If you read enough of them, you see the same names popping up who review music on Amazon, for instance. I called one person out when I saw their name over and over again. This person posted a very defensive reply to me. He was just a very happy person who purchased these CD, so he said. It was total BS.

 

For a fact, I think, a significant number of us regularly lose sight of the reality that guerrilla marketing has been around, online, since the late ‘90s. Corporate level products makers, cottage industry product makers, and lifestyle promoters of all kinds have used marketing agencies, independent operators and other organizations to masquerade as regular discussion forum members in thousands of different sorts of forums, and latterly Facebook groups among other social media vectors, to sway opinion, raise the profile of products, criticize competitors’ products and services, and so on.

The problem is, I don’t actually know who you are and you don’t actually know who I am. We’ve never met. We’re disembodied profiles posting in an online audio discussion form. If you or I build up enough of a trust relationship because over some period of time our respective contributory posts gain some degree of acceptance, then one or the other of us might be able to say - as might some other SHF members - something like, “Oh, @avanti1960 posts? Yeah, he’s okay.”

But when a member is, unbeknownst to us, under contract to a marketing agency or a product promoter to spread the word or to talk down a competitor’s product, it’s often hard to tell. When, worse still, an individual discussion forum member develops a personal axe to grind because some company refused to give him his money back for a product he kicked the daylights out of or spilled his coffee into or misused, it’s also often hard to tell unless the person becomes neurotic about it and persists too long.

Without face-to-face social contact - something that is diametrically opposite to the concept of online discussion forums - there’s far less peer pressure to force rectitude and far less filtering-out of the obvious BSers and far fewer alarms that signal the presence of individuals who are acting on prurient or commercial interests.

 

Yes !

 

There are dealers on this forum. A couple of them are honest enough that the name of their shop is in their avatar. Some around here may not be that honest.

A forum I was on years back related to another hobby required all dealers, vendors, manufacturers, etc. to use a badge stating such.

Another restriction on that other forum was that dealers, vendors, manufacturers, etc. were restricted to posting in the "vendor corner" and their own threads about product updates. They were not permitted to comment on the main forums where ordinary members posted, nor were they permitted to comment in the review database unless it was their product and they were answering a basic question about instructions, how the product was made, etc.

Of course occasionally vendors would make sock puppet accounts, send troupes of fanboys in, etc. and that would result in people getting banned.

 

I have caught a few dealers and mfg reps on here and elsewhere who were operating in "stealth mode" or were or had "sock puppets". That's so lame and annoying, in addition to being a disservice to members who don't frequent enough to figure that out. I actually discussed that with our host and he agreed that all industry folk should have an identifying note or contact info that would relate who they were specifically. That way, anyone reading posts would know the source of the information. It can cut both ways. It can inform readers that are open minded that the poster has experience and probably a good deal of information about a product or subject that others do not. It also has the effect of scaring away paranoid members from taking anything they post at face value. It takes time to read a lot of someone's posts to determine how fair they are.

I do enjoy posting here when I have the time, and it is important that industry people are encouraged to post here as that is a great deal of what the forum is about. The host is a prominent industry member and the exclusion of other engineers, etc would be a disservice to the content of the forum. It adds professional insight into the music forum and the hardware forum. There is an audio engineer who does editing for videos that posts here who's comments I always find interesting.

One thing that helps here is that the forum is moderated, so if someone gets out of line, they can be reprimanded or even banned. That is important for civil discourse, whether the individuals are dealers, consumers, mfg reps, reviewers, engineers, etc. A couple of reviewers also post here. At least one uses his real name or his pen name, so that his comments are seen as his own. I respect this fellow's opinions more than many others. I can't say that about all reviewers though. Forums that are not moderated can get ugly fast. Usually it has nothing to do with professionals that they typically have enough sense to stay out of that, yet they can often be targets of hostility. I practically stopped posting at one site as it became a cesspool of raving nut jobs and a haven for those wishing to abuse others while hiding behind a screen name. I have been reading and posting on groups since before the forums really started, on usenet, back before I had an audio business. That was similar to other unmoderated forums as it was a real wild west sort of free for all. I remember one crazy retired engineer who would post really negative stuff about people who disagreed with his totally objectivist views. He was a measurements uber alles guy, and must had had actual tin ears from what I remember of his views. If he would have been civil, others would have likely been as well, yet he brought out the worst in people and made reading the threads taxing. Another character was a dealer who was very opinionated and overbearing. Funny guy, but also a nuisance and a BS'r that made everything he said suspect. Of course there were and are nice folks and civil conversations there and on other boards, but some make it difficult to enjoy or learn from.

Now, about some industry insider being paid to spread bad info or reviews, I find that hard to believe. First, because no one seems to want to pay anyone in the industry for anything... And secondly, because they just don't have time for such stupid crap. It isn't effective and no one wants to buy "advertising" that isn't effective. If you do see someone posting a really negative opinion on something, which you know to be or assume to be a respected product or company, then that person likely really just doesn't like it for some actual reason such as the sound, the build, the marketing hype, etc. In the case of a full-on bad review, well that takes time and only someone with an axe to grind would do that. I have seen a couple of really dissatisfied customers (justifiably or not) do this, and a blogger, not a respected reviewer do it. A couple bloggers seem to think that they get free stuff for writing reviews and when they don't they threaten to or actually post negative crap. Way too much time on their hands. (speaking of which, I need to get back to work as I have a couple of amps to service). The guerilla marketing thing, I don;t see so much in this industry either. Maybe start-up companies and over-zealous reps, but posts that come up by accounts to specifically run a negative ad seem to pop up and then vanish just as fast; a real hit and run job, as they probably have a lot of sites to spam.
-Bill

 

I'm not sure mfgs. or dealers should comment on the competition unless they make a thorough technical COMPARISON showing the advantages/disadvantages of EACH. Not just bash the other guy.

If someone was paying someone to intentional damage a business with false or biased 'opinion' that may expose them to legal jeopardy.

 

Yeah, I remember newsgroups before message boards as well. Things could get very ugly there fast. I use to participate on music-oriented newsgroups and there were definitely a segment of trolls that were just on there to pick fights and not really interested in discussing music at all. Unmoderated forums are usually a bad idea. Often its a situation where the site owner doesn't have the time and there aren't any volunteers. So it's a free for all. Then eventually things get out of control to the point where the forum just has to be shut down. I've seen that a few times.

Yeah, I've seen a few of those. I think the guerilla/stealth marketing thing is a lot more prevalent on YouTube vs. forums, but it's far more product praising than negative stuff. YT reviewers can't get paid for posting on forums, so they don't really do much of that. They focus on things that generate revenue and more product to review to keep the gravy train going. These folks generally don't say or post anything negative, because it wouldn't help them.

 

It doesn't even help to have technical evidence if a company really wants to sue. I recall hearing some of the big boy companies (who shall go nameless) starting more than a few lawsuits.
-Bill

 

Precisely.
-Bill

 

I agree with a lot that's been said already. An opinion from a stranger shouldn't become more convincing simply because it's on a computer screen . . . but often, it does. People have all sorts of motives, and even those with good motives probably have different criteria than mine for judging sound.

I expect that yes, there are posters on every forum who have devious motives. I think they are a small minority, but they can have a lot of influence.

That said, there is another factor that influences online opinion . . . people buy into what they own already. Perhaps this is a form of the Sunk Costs Fallacy (easy to look up). It is quite natural for people -- including audiophiles -- to cheer-lead for what they are committed to. It's a form of validation, I suppose. And it makes many opinions (including mine!) somewhat biased.

 

I don’t think there are paid Assassins trying to bury the competition in an effort to sell their own products as an alternative. Everyone has some level of bias and those that get paid to do any part of this for a living clearly have incredible bias. You just have to take that into account.

I do think there are many, many people posting negative opinions about equipment they have never heard and I would call that dishonest. They may wrap it up as “I understand science so I don’t need to hear it”, but it’s the same thing. For example opinions about cables, LP’s that aren’t AAA, and many examples of equipment.

At a certain point you spend enough time on a forum that you have a pretty good idea of who you are talking to. You weed out the guys that just like to trash things to put themselves over a some dog eared Mr. Science.

 

If you are talking about reviews on sites that are selling stuff, I find the positive reviews to be dishonest to some extent. Ever notice how every piece of equipment on music direct is 4 stars? Amazon is also really bad for this. Any feedback that would make you think twice about making a purchase is either we sensors or buried. You will never see “this amp caught on fire” for any of the garbage Chinese tube amps on Amazon and yet it does happen.

 

Lol! Great question! And you betcha! Why should comments on audio forums and audio reviews be any different than any thing else? The correct term of late is call “fake news” and it touches everything and in all subjects. And there are lots of reasons for the “why” of fake news, but it’s real. So that’s a given...it’s every place. So now that you know it, how do you protect self from it in audio circles? You protect yourself from it just like you do in any thing else. You get as much facts as you can. Would you trust a person who gets all his political news from a bowling alley? And yet , millions of people do....and parrot it as truth!

In audio...at least in my book, the number one thing to know is.....know the flavors and facts of each piece of gear in your rig...so when looking to add new devices you know what you need. It’s not easy to listen or give it a test run all the time. Second, search out the facts about what you are looking for by reading as much about said product as you can. Look at the pros and cons of what is said from multiple reviews if possible. Third, find those whom ears you really trust. And always know...all products don’t work or sound the same in all rigs or configurations. But do know...once you find resources (people you trust) also know what they say can be labeled as gospel if it’s mechanical or a highly respected opinion if it’s about how a product sounds or reacts in a certain setting. For me....I’ve found some highly respected opinions and some factual gospel from some of those right hear at Hoffman. Examples are...Agitator who has a gang of cats that constantly do test on gear...Even tho I’ve not asked him, his commentary on certain subjects I’ve found trustful even tho he and I don’t agree on cables, he’s very helpful in other areas to me, and he has no idea. Another great resource is Davey. He’s a great technical resource when it comes to all things phono amps cartridges and Turntables, so I read what he has to say about certain subjects relating to such....and he has no idea I do. And the other person whom I trust on phono amps turntables and when not to buy a product is the dude that goes by the name patient_ot. I don’t think I’ve ever spoken 50 words to him and he has no idea, but he can be reliable on certain subjects in my opinion Those are just 3 cats who’s commentary I consider if I need a certain product and I’m in the valley making a decision about a product. But back to fake news, avanti.....yeah it every place bro...so tread lightly.

 

I believe there are a few tell-tale signs of marketing guerrillas:

Posts only on specific topics (i.e. always turntables or always amps)

Posts tend to steer toward a specific brand

Rarely make concessions when countered

No profile or vague profile

Lack of history on the forum(s)

Clear lack of technical knowledge

Posts are vague on details: where/how/when/who

They post and ghost

 

There's also the false glowing comments that can be just as frustrating so why not call it like it is. When researching an item I bet I'm not alone in disliking sugercoated turds just as much as brand bashing.

 

Yikes, I've never noticed this here. I mean, if you ask whither Linn or Technics, there's gonna be opinions.

Now on a dedicated audiophile equipment website, I might expect some disengenuous responses . . .

 

I have found that many critical comments are not true. So many people base their critical comments on what others have said, and have not actually owned what they are criticizing.
Of things that are receiving critical comments I find to be total B.S. because I HAVE owned those products and have found many critical comments to not be true at all.
It stems, I feel, from buyer's remorse. They went and spent the big bucks on something that didn't measure up to their expectations, so they have to badmouth other things that they feel is beneath their standards, although the things they are criticizing are much better than what they foolishly bought.

 

+1 - This one really gets me...when a combo of the same amp, speakers, and phono stage are always the recommended and "perfect" solution to anyone's sonic aspirations. I've even seen one guy who routinely recommends selling all of one's current gear in order to buy his recommended amp and speakers.