Do I need a special needle for very old 78s?

I recently inherited my grandfather's old Jazz and Classical 78s. I am guesses most are from the 40's or even earlier. I bought an inexpensive victrola so that I could listen to them, I am sure they haven't been played in decades. I heard that I might need a different needle to play these with, but I can't find much info on that online, so I thought I would ask all of you, the experts. On the records I have tried to play, I have to turn up the sound all the way to hear the barely audible music under the scratchy noise. Maybe there are some tips for cleaning these old albums, or anything else I need to know. I love these old albums, but can't afford to spend much money on a fancy system.

 

That's ok, just get started.
Yes, you do need a different "needle" for those 78s.
What is the "inexpensive victrola" model or model number?
It's likely that you can get the "needle" for about $15, and it will replace the standard LP/45 needle that the player came with.

 

Innovative Technology VSC-550BT-TQ Victrola. Some records sound a lot better than others, but I have scores of them. I am having so much fun, I could easily become addicted to this. It's strange for me, because although I am a dancer and am surrounded by music, was married to a musician and raised one, I have never owned much physical music except for a small amount of vinyl as a teen.

 

Wanna learn more about old phonographs, and victorolas and shellac records? Right up the road from you, Riverside has a chapter of the Golden State Phonograph Society, how handy is that:
Golden State Phonograph Society

 

Cleaning is good, but NEVER use any alcohol based cleaner on 78s. Alcohol melts shellac.

 

When you say an inexpensive victrola, do you mean an old or a new lookalike copy of a victrola?
Does it have a cartridge?
Can you post the model of it?
It might help others here help you.

 

You can also use a modern turntable if you choose, you just have to outfit the cartridge with a 3 mil stylus.

 

Warm water and dish washing liquid a lot of people use.
Nothing fancy, just be careful getting the labels wet.
If they do, pat them dry, don't wipe them!
Water on the label may still result in some bubbling on the label too.

 

[QUOTE="?
Can you post the model of it?
It might help others here help you.[/QUOTE]
Innovative Technology VSC-550BT-TQ Victrola

 

Whatever you use, find a sacrificial lamb to try it on before you start working with the one you are most excited about.

 

Innovative Technology VSC-550BT-TQ Victrola[/QUOTE]
I'm so stupid, I see you already mentioned it above.

Those cheaper players aren't going to do justice to those 78's unfortunately.
You could upgrade the stylus, but would almost be the cost of the player itself.
I understand now why your not probably hearing the music as well.
Those records can sound fantastic, but it also comes at a price tag.
You would have to upgrade to them justice.
The needle you have is more than fine for 45 and 33 records, but not really for shellac 78's.
The problem using that needle with shellac records too, it'll wear your needle quickly,
and give poor audio.
Furthermore, going back to playing vinyl records, may really damage them because of the
worn needle.
I'd use the player for your vinyl records, but i'd be looking for a upgrade if you wanna really
get into the 78 game.
Just my 2 cents.

 

Just to rabbit on a little bit more.....
I'm curious to know how many hours of playing time have you had with your player?
The manual says your needle should only last about 50 hours.
How To Replace The Stylus - Victrola VSC-550BT Operating Manual [Page 9]
More than likely it's made of ceramic, which is really no good for your records at all.
A slight upgrade would be to a diamond tip needle, which will be better for your records and
should give you an approx 500 hours.
However! Absolutely no good for your 78's at all.
I hate being the bad guy, but these cheaper units don't get any love around here
because of their crudity. They are long term too on your records.
Another alternative to consider, find an older player from the mid to late 70's and early 80's,
and if it's working properly, it will already be a better than the one you have.
I know it may not have the look of it you like in the one you have, but for audio quality and
a better opportunity to get some 'juice' out of those 78's, it may be an option.
Food for thought......

 

Yes, the original needle it comes with is not great, it is only a starter needle and mostly plastic. You should replace that also for 33/45 records.

The better needle for 33/45 has the model number of 793-D7M.
The needle for 78 has the model number of 793-D3.

You should get both. The 793-D7M for 33/45 will sound better and last much longer than the starter needle. These two 793 models are real diamond needles (the D in the model numbers).

You can find both on ebay, just search those model numbers. Look for listings that show the packages, which are black with a clear triangle window, made by the company Pfanstiehl which has been around for 50+ years. The needle for 78 is painted green in front, so you will not confuse the two different needles. I have ordered other needles (the better word is stylus or styli for plural) from most of those ebay sellers and they are all reliable and fast, so I won't recommend one over another. You should be able to find one ebay seller who has both and can ship both together. Some sellers have a discount when you buy more than one stylus at the same time, just add each to your cart first.

Don't try to clean any records until you get your new needles (styli)!

Have fun!

 

Thank you all. I will get the new needles AND keep an eye out for an affordable better turntable. I can probably afford about $200, so maybe I can find something used. I was really overwhelmed by the prices and variety of players, and my own complete ignorance.

 

See if you can get a good quality Audio Technica turntable (i.e. AT-LP120) and one of their cartridges specifically designed for 78 RPM playback. Later on, you'll want a proper pre-amp for setting the correct EQ.

 

Yes, you need the correct styli to play 78 RPM discs. And a cartridge capable of tracking heavy enough to handle 78 micro warps. The AT-LP 120 USB is a good option for 78 RPM duty.

 

Congrats on discovering the joys of pre-LP audio! As you're finding, it's a whale of a lot of fun.

I wrote a series of articles about 78 RPM turntables, published last year by webzine TNT-Audio, and my same column has included some other information you may find helpful (or not). You can find everything I've done, plus an interloper or two that got filed under my name, here: [Vintage column] On an Overgrown Pathé - [English]

To answer the original question: "78s" takes in a lot of territory, but from the way you describe them yours probably are conventional lateral disks from maybe the 1930s and '40s. You'll need a special "78" stylus to play them, considerably larger than an LP stylus; most stock ones seem to be around 2.5 to 3 mil. That will be fine for casual play, but if you get really serious about them, you will want a range of stylus sizes from maybe 2.5 mil to 4 mil for laterals and, should you get into Pathe vertical cut discs, much larger still. (For the difference between vertical and lateral cut, see my article "Mono-a-mono" in the linked list above.)

If I'm right about what you have, speed won't be an issue, but, again, if you really get into them, acoustic 78s (i.e., those produced before the introduction of microphones and electronics in the mid-1920s) and to a lesser extent those made for a very few years thereafter generally seem to run at about every conceivable speed *except* 78 RPM, and you'll want a turntable with wide speed variability, ideally from maybe 60 to 100 RPM.

Two other basic features to have: you need a "mono" setting on your preamp and should have at least basic bass and treble tone controls. Except for a few modern issues (today, notably on Rivermont records, which, by the way, do play with a modern stereo stylus; Rivermont Records: Vinyl ), 78s are all monaural, and if you play them in stereo you'll get huge amounts of extraneous surface noise. Also, recording curves during the 78 era were anything but standardized, and playing them back on modern gear, which assumes the now-standard RIAA curve, will tend to make them bass heavy and dull. You can roughly compensate with bass-treble; later, again, if you really get into them, you'll want a phono preamp with adjustable curve settings. Mine is a Graham Slee Jazz Club, which apparently now is out of production https://www.musicdirect.com/phono-preamps/graham-slee-jazz-club-phono-preamp

 

Then she also needs a receiver and speakers or powered speakers. Oh, and don't worry about the RIAA curve (EQ). Technically it's a big deal but practically the frequency range on 78s is limited enough that you don't have drastic problems playing them back with the RIAA.

If you someday become an audiophile you can worry about that stuff. As a hobbyist you don't really need to. There are quite a few steps between a suitcase record player and a Graham Slee preamp IMHO.

 

I found this at best buy, for $229. Good? And I can get a receiver and speakers there too?


Audio-Technica - Stereo Turntable - Black
Model:AT-LP120XUSB-BK
SKU:6344416

 

drh,

Your TNT-Audio articles are very well written. Offer a great deal of useful information to the veteran 78 RPM disc enthusiast and newbie alike. And are easily read and understood. And very useful. I bookmarked these, and will recommend these articles to fellow record collectors. Many thanks for a nice, useful resource.

 

One other option that occurs to me is that you could use the usb and your computer speakers until you find a full setup that you like

 

Victrolas use steel needles. Not only is this the way they were designed and manufactured, steel is far less likely to damage shellac than a modern diamond stylus.

Steel needles were a specialty order when I owned a victrola in the 1970s, I assume this is still the case. They were cheap, though.

 

There is no such thing as a ceramic stylus. It uses a ceramic piezoelectric element inside the cartridge, but the stylus itself is going to be either diamond, sapphire, or ruby.

The correct 3 mil stylus for playing 78 RPM records on any modern "vintage-style" record player (Crosley, Victrola, Jensen, ION, etc.) is the Pfanstiehl 793-D3 (diamond) or 793-S3 (sapphire).

If you're going to be playing 78s constantly and don't want to keep changing the between the 3 mil stylus and the microgroove stylus, you can replace the cartridge with the Banpa BP2ATC, which accepts a "flipover" stylus that can be switched between both types without needing to remove it:

 

She doesn't have a Victrola. She has a modern suitcase record player branded Victrola.

 

Ah.