Do you use a sub-woofer ? Is it best to use 1 or 2 ?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Soundlabs, Feb 10, 2019.

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  1. apesfan

    apesfan "Going Ape"

    When I went the two subwoofer route salesmen, pros hobbyists all declared that both subs should be wired to same outputs as in Mono. Both subs played both channels. Stereo subs was verboten. I did try stereo but went the mono way cause it made sense in that the job of my subs was to clean and level and smooth out the low 20-100 hz frequencies. Stereo sub setup caused a few new anomalies. It did sound good but Mono won out. Have fun, John M.
     
  2. Josquin des Prez

    Josquin des Prez I have spoken!

    Location:
    U.S.
    My subs are both REL, so I followed REL's and my dealer's guidance and wired as a stereo pair. My dealer helped adjust and dial them in when they delivered and installed my speakers. I am very happy with the result.
     
  3. apesfan

    apesfan "Going Ape"


    Very good. My situation was to get rid of booms and nulls so mono is the right way and ofcourse you have more good bass with mono setup and hence the dial in on the Rels could go lower both in frequencies and volume.
    Bass from left channel is reproduced from 2Rels and getting the room right is easier and the bass is almost non directional if positioning and frequency dial is properly done for right and left mono wireing .
    When I got my Rel stadiums I set it up like you in stereo. Then when I had electrical problems the techs from Sumiko who distributed Rels years ago wanted me to do Mono and boy in my setup and room it was glorious. Have fun, John M.
     
  4. Josquin des Prez

    Josquin des Prez I have spoken!

    Location:
    U.S.
    Maybe I'll try it sometime, but right now my cables are custom and specific to my setup. They are 1m and connect from my speaker terminals to the subs. I'll ask my dealer what they think of the idea going mono. They may have experience with it.

    Almost all my listening is vinyl and acoustic classical and jazz. I have a pretty good idea how it should all sound, having spent years listening to live classical and jazz on a regular basis as a music student. I really believe my system is very nicely dialed in. It's not 100% and never will be. I'm happy to have it where it is and sit back to enjoy music. trying to achieve perfection just drives people nuts and keeps them from enjoying the system. I don't care to go down that road.

    [​IMG]
     
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  5. Bill Hart

    Bill Hart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin
    Right on. This is what I was going to reference.
    I've long regarded subs as a mixed blessing, coming from electrostats (original Quads, and later, Crosby 63 Quads). With horns, the same problem exists in getting the subs to cohere with the smaller dynamic woofer system (not really a subwoofer) that are part of the Avantgarde Duo. Adding multiple subs evens out the response. I added a pair of 15" Rythmik sealed boxes, not very expensive (stateside), and use a relatively inexpensive DSP unit, the
    DSpeaker 8033IIS.
    Set up takes time, if you have some equipment it will make it easier, but ultimately, final tuning was done by ear. (Having a helper adjust settings while you listen is also a plus).
    The subs add some foundation to the music that you only notice when there is deep bass material more prominent in the mix, but they also add an additional degree of spaciousness to the presentation that seems counter-intuitive- improving low bass performance adds something more to the midrange/stage? Probably partly some upper harmonics (though the x-overs are set to roll off pretty low) and partly a result of additional drivers moving air.
    Once dialed in there is no apparent discontinuity, something that a lot of people have trouble with using the older era Duo (which now has DSP for the woofers for the latest models). You'd get the woofers loud enough to rock the room, and they sounded noticeably different than the horns; dial them back enough to cohere, and the system sounded emasculated.
    Thus, essentially running four woofer sets- the pair that are part of the Duo and the additional pair of 15" sealed boxes plus DSP. (the DSP is not in chain with the main amp/speaker system, so no messing with the sound of the Avantgardes- the subs run from a output on my line stage, and that's where the DSP is introduced- only at the auxiliary subwoofers).
    [​IMG]DSCF0768-2 by bill hart, on Flickr
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2019
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  6. Socalguy

    Socalguy Forum Resident

    Location:
    CA
    1 12” or 15” should do unless your room is warehouse sized
     
  7. Sneaky Pete

    Sneaky Pete Flat the 5 and That’s No Jive

    Location:
    NYC USA
    You can get satisfactory results with one, but two would be better. Of course they must be set up properly and dialed in.
     
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  8. apesfan

    apesfan "Going Ape"


    Keep it the way you have it! Thata the way I did it for years and it can be glorious. The mono setup seems to be more for fighting peaks and dips in bad bass and bad room. If my room came in alittle better in smoothing out lower bass I would go back to stereo subs or buy two more subs and use them in a stereo setup along with the first two subs in mono. 4 subs can be amazing but really no need in my room.
    Professional audio legends like Floyd Toole advocated as many quality subs carefully positioned to eliminate bass abnormalities you can afford. After reading his book I never had poor bass ever again. Room dimensions, Speaker placement, Sub placement are the holy grail to great sound.
    Rarely will a front stereo pair of great speakers give you what you need for great accurate bass. Subwoofers placed mathematically in the listening space will. The subs are there for smoothing out bass not necessarily for pushing you into the wall with earth shattering results.
     
  9. Josquin des Prez

    Josquin des Prez I have spoken!

    Location:
    U.S.
    I really don't have space for more subs anyway. It's a smallish room (11 x 17) and I'm lucky to get my large speakers working as well as they do.
     
  10. apesfan

    apesfan "Going Ape"

    Yeah my room is about 13x20x8 a very good ratio according to physicists and audiologist and maybe thats why I solved?.. my bass problems. Room is first as you no doubt know to get good bass. Then all the rest we discussed.
    I had the same setup in my 11x14 room and that was a tough time to get satisfactory bass. John M.
     
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  11. Kyhl

    Kyhl On break

    Location:
    Savage
    Yes.
    It's not easy to explain to those that haven't experienced it or set it up.

    Listening to Bill Evens at Shelly Manne's and the bass is distinctively left, piano center, drums right.
    Locationally none of the bass comes from the sub location. The sub adds to the size of the room in the recording, not in the playback.

    And as I've said over and over, once set right there is no fiddling with it/them. If you find yourself fiddling with it by song then it isn't set right.

    [​IMG]

    Monster corner bass trap on the left.
    [​IMG]

    For perspective, that is a 70" screen, so a bit over 5' wide. The trap hanging above is 4 feet wide. 15" sealed sub in the middle. If I could afford 2, i might.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2019
  12. Soundlabs

    Soundlabs Reference Townshend Audio Dealer. Thread Starter

    Location:
    Welling kent
    Hooked up 1 Rel Stentor in the middle of my Soundlabs in front of my rack, Hooked up 1 Rel Stadium behind my rack in line with the Stentor, Played Dixie Chicken then Sailin Shoes by Little feat to dial Subs in and BINGO the bass in my room is so dame good i had to pull myself from the system to give my wife a rest.
    OK so plan is enjoy the music but look out for another Rel Stentor and sell the Stadium, The Stentor is the better sub by significant margin but both Stadium and Stentor together are fantastic, My system now goes much deeper which was my plan to add depth to increase sound stage and open system up which has worked, Total cost 650 gbp all in.
     
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  13. Soundlabs

    Soundlabs Reference Townshend Audio Dealer. Thread Starter

    Location:
    Welling kent
    Update, I cant sell the Stadium is sounds so good with the Stentor, on the look out for another Stentor if 2 Rels sounds this good cant wait to hear 3, The 2 Rel Subs have a family sound they are excellent with music i am only 2 channel man never fancied home cinema.
     
  14. Bill Hart

    Bill Hart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin
    You don't necessarily need matching subs to accomplish this....
     
  15. Stebroc

    Stebroc Forum Resident

    Well, considering that there are sounds under 40 hz , if possible I would like to get them it in the future. But I read that for a medium-small room can be very difficult hear really (and correctly) 30 or 20 Hz, or that is necessary a complete (for this reason very expensive and anthiestical) treatment. I'm wrong? And in the case would be better, more easy, integrate a sub with a pair or floorstanding or bookshelf speakers? Also with a sub these types of speakers maintain their pros and cons? (more extensive bass with floorstanding+ sub, more soundstage with bookshelf+sub)

    I read also that with a speaker that go down more easily, the sub would be work only with very low frequencies, and for this could be the best solution for the clarity of the mids and less distortion.
     
  16. Soundlabs

    Soundlabs Reference Townshend Audio Dealer. Thread Starter

    Location:
    Welling kent
    HI very good point, i choose Rels as i am familiar with them from years ago, they only make subs and have done so for over 20 years, The Stentor was an approx 3000 gbp Sub in its day and at 350 gbp used is a great bargain, I can not think of any other sub under 400 gbp that can challenge the Stentor and as i mentioned i really like the family sound which is deep and musical without any boom I have them both set flat using just the gain controls it is working really nicely, which other Subs do you feel could compete for under 400 gbp please ?
    HI Thanks for the heads up, I choose the early Rels because they are built like tanks and were designed for music before home cinema took off, they can be picked up for under £400 on eBay, the Stentor is a serious piece of kit weighs approx 50 kg, i do not know of any other Sub with the build and sound quality for under £400, Do you please ? Thank you i really appreciate your advise.
     
  17. Soundlabs

    Soundlabs Reference Townshend Audio Dealer. Thread Starter

    Location:
    Welling kent
    HI I have found that it has been very easy to integrate the Rel Stentor with my Soundlab Dynastats ie full range loudspeakers, I use the lowest crossover setting and use the gain control to get the volume just right. Going by my experience i feel it would be harder to set the Stentor up with smaller speakers because as i adjusted the crossover i started to pick the sub out all the time, even with continuous attempts, maybe with newer designs it would be easier YMMV. I am getting better results using 2 subs 1 Stentor and 1 Stadium, the Stadium on its own was not good enough but with the Stentor it works great, i am on the look out for another Stentor for the money its excellent.
     
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  18. Bill Hart

    Bill Hart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin
    I'm not really in a position to offer any product advice for a couple reasons: one, your market is different from mine, and product pricing will vary- for example, the subs I added were made right here in Austin Texas and were delivered without 'shipping' so it not only saved money but avoided the risk of damage with a heavy item.
    I also haven't compared a lot of more current subs in my system.
    It seems there are several camps here:
    one, involving the use of a high level signal feed from the main amp, which has the advantage of shaping the sound of the subwoofer to the character of the main system more. (the alternative being low level inputs, like RCA or XLR, that connect to the preamp or line stage). I use both methods with different woofers.
    two- servo correction and self-powered woofers- most people seem to be ok with this these days and they are common, but I've certainly heard different views on this- that is, a conventional sub without servo correction can sound more natural. I think it depends on the subwoofer and what you are matching it with. Also, once you get away from the servo corrected woofers with built in plate amps, you are going to suffer more cost to connect a good power amp to the subwoofers, and possibly, an active crossover, which introduces more issues/cost. (I haven't used a free standing active crossover since the late '70s).
    The REL seems to be a popular favorite among audiophiles for music and 'natural' sound. I see no reason why you should look for some other brand--
    The only other thing I could offer, and this takes you in a different direction, is planar or dipole woofers, which theoretically do a better job of matching electrostatic character. Here in the States we have folks who make the drivers, plate amps and offer kits; you build or have someone with wood carpenter skills build you the frame. They tend to be larger, physically, in the room and a good dipole requires some distance from the wall behind it, but DIY can be a cost savings and perhaps just ordering the drivers and plate amps from the States isn't that costly in terms of shipping or duty, I don't know. Obviously, this would be more involved and time consuming. Like I said, I don't see anything wrong with the path you are on....
    More subs= better in terms of evening out the response. Taking time in terms of positioning, crossover, gain, and phase adjustment will pay dividends.
    Oh, one other throw in- DSP- I'm normally against adding more in the signal path, but I really like what DSP can do for bass in a room. And there are free-standing units you can buy, somewhat cheaply, to experiment with.
     
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  19. bru87tr

    bru87tr 80’s rule

    Location:
    MA
    Depends how big your sub is. :)
     
  20. Hymie the Robot

    Hymie the Robot Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Not really...
     
  21. TimB

    TimB Pop, Rock and Blues for me!

    Location:
    Colorado
    I use 2 10” Veladyne subs and it made it easy to adjust room issues. When I use the Infinuty IL 40, they have the RABOS system that tames most of the room issues
     
  22. Madness

    Madness "Hate is much too great a burden to bear."

    Location:
    Maryland, USA
    I have one sub, and wouldn't even know how to connect two of them to my integrated amp, even if I had enough space in my office/listening room.
     
  23. Soundlabs

    Soundlabs Reference Townshend Audio Dealer. Thread Starter

    Location:
    Welling kent
    I love this thread,
    Thank you so much for your input, you sound very experienced and i love the idea of a dipole woofer, some of the best imaging i have experienced came from a pair of Apogee Duet Sigs i really loved them but the Bass panels went, i then tried a new pair with the Australian panels i believe with external crossovers but preferred the original Apogee Duet Sigs which are very hard to find in the UK so maybe Rels can be had here in the UK but Apogees can be had in the USA, if i had a bigger budget i would explore the Dipole woofer idea but i am saving towards a new amplifier and with 7 children i am always on a tight budget but that makes me really appreciate what i can buy.
     
  24. Madness

    Madness "Hate is much too great a burden to bear."

    Location:
    Maryland, USA
    For the love of pete please toss in some punctuation now and then...I tried to read that all on one breath and almost passed out.
     
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  25. bru87tr

    bru87tr 80’s rule

    Location:
    MA
    You're welcome to your opinion and mine is that more isn't always better.

    Especially if you dont know what your doing.
     
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