SH Spotlight Do you want to hear two amazing RCA-Victor 78s from 1932? Ted Weems, Isham Jones..

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Steve Hoffman, Oct 9, 2010.

  1. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Mastering Engineer Your Host Thread Starter

    The guy uses a 1954 Marantz preamp to do his transfers.

    The music, vocal break, music thing went on right through the Swing Era. When that ended in 1946, the vocalist became the spotlight from then on.
     
  2. Greg1954

    Greg1954 New Member

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    It's often billed as a vocal refrain on the records. And especially if you were a singer with name band, like Abe Lyman or somebody, that's surely how it went.
     
  3. action pact

    action pact Music Omnivore

    PM me... I may be willing to sell...
     
  4. Greg1954

    Greg1954 New Member

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    You can have a record from say, 1928, a Victor scroll that plays with a lot of noise. Then find a repressing of that same record from several years later, like a circle label, when they were back to using good material, and the noise level is way down. It can be a crap shoot, but one can also learn of how to get closer to better era pressings, much like vinyl collectors do.

    A lot of things were never repressed, so your basically stuck with what you've got, though maybe another similar vintage copy could be better. I picked up a shiny clean looking (1929) Victor scroll of singer/actress Bebe Daniels last month, and the thing is just horrendously noisy. Must have been from bottom of the hot vat or something, where all the filler settled.
     
  5. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Mastering Engineer Your Host Thread Starter

    I've always found that the repressings are usually alternate takes which bugs the heck out of me. I had a 1950 vinyl DJ Victor of the late 1920's Roger Wolfe Kahn song "She's A Great, Great Girl" which features an amazing early trombone solo by Jack Teagarden. I loved that thing so much that I sprung 50 bucks for a Scroll Victor of it. When I got it, it was an alternate take. Actually it was the CORRECT take. I was mad but elated at the same time, mad that someone screwed up and couldn't tell the difference, elated that I now had two DIFFERENT Teagarden solos. But, it's like sort of hearing a song for 30 years and then realizing that it's not the actual original released version. Makes ya feel stupid.

    Correct Scroll Victor version. Dig Teagarden and later Joe Venuti with Eddie Lang & rhythm section:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XG0IqMUgVB8
     
  6. Greg1954

    Greg1954 New Member

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    That could well be the case, though with red label (classical/opera) records, especially, it seems that the same takes are often used.
    I have more of that kind of stuff in more than one copy than I do of jazz.
     
  7. Greg1954

    Greg1954 New Member

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    That is a great record. Nice transfer of the original scroll version , too, whoever did it. The opening phrase of Teagarden's solo makes me think of the song Goody, Goody. Though that song hadn't been written yet.
     
  8. Fnarf

    Fnarf Forum Resident

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    Using a steel-needle Victrola on a later 78 is criminal. Electrical recordings demand electrical playback, with proper tonearms and needles, especially when you get up to WWII and beyond. Lots of people are just destroying their records.
     
  9. Greg1954

    Greg1954 New Member

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    I'd say using a phonograph with a steel needle on records after mid-30's is bad, early electrics were made to be played with mechanical reproducers. Though that's not to say that you should it, if you can be satisfied using a modern setup. All records, to some degree, will be needlessly worn playing them on old machines.

    I don't like to go to YouTube and see people playing really minty, good records on old machines, but that's their business...

    I'll play the occasional record on my Victrola for fun, selectively. My Victrola doesn't actually get a whole lot of use. Not getting rid of it either.:)
     
  10. Greg1954

    Greg1954 New Member

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  11. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Mastering Engineer Your Host Thread Starter

    Interesting. That was a great British band.

    You can hear the places where the old steel needle shaved off the peaks. That grinding sound. First old record I ever paid for, the guy said it looked E+ but it had been played a few times with a steel needle and even though it looked new, it was "compromised" like the above record. True, I paid 35 cents for it but I learned my lesson at 16 when collecting any old records:

    NO VISUAL GRADING!
     
  12. Greg1954

    Greg1954 New Member

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    I guess that applies even more to the louder cut records. Worst are when there's little strips of circular gray bands on the record surface from a steel needle reaming out a loud passage. Many of those kinds of records may just as well be binned anyway as they're very hard to listen to.
     
  13. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Mastering Engineer Your Host Thread Starter

    I was told by a real Victor old-timer that a steel needle was OK back in the day for any 1900-1935 78 as long as it was ONE NEEDLE ONE PLAY only. He said that only the worn tips shaved off the records like that. Since people usually kept the needle in for multiple plays, the surfaces got "grayed".

    I have two types of 78's. Minty and junkers and I'm not about to test his statement with the minties and the junkers are already shot.

    Reminds me of when music and machine historian John Levin tested out his restored 1929 Victor Ortho "turn over" changer on a mint Bix record and the device promptly smashed the thing into 40 pieces, heh. I was right there and just stared slack-jawed..
     
  14. Greg1954

    Greg1954 New Member

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    Getting into the here and now, if you must go the vintage phonograph route, using unrestored reproducers on 78's is supposed to be trouble. If the diaphragm is seized up, or there's dirt/gunk or anything is hindering the lateral needle movement, you're looking at a record plow.

    And in talking about the kind of records that began this thread, the Tungstone needles that Victor promoted so heavily around that time (didn't have to change them) were supposed to have a tip radius of something like 7 mils. That was never going to be good. Just start right at the widest point of the groove and grind, grind, grind, it down.
     
  15. Hamhead

    Hamhead Sinatra promo specialist

    I saw something that would make you cry.
    In one of the malls in Hollywood Florida, there was a store that specialised in resored jukeboxes and vintage arcade games. This guy had some amazing things and was always asking me for vintage rock & roll 78s, I can see why. I used to see records get destroyed in his machines when they malfunctioned, lots of good ones too. I saw a copy of Speedo by the Cadillacs get broken into pieces inside a Seeberg when it dropped out of the arm that puts the record on the platter then another mechanisim inside broke it into bits. He had some nice jukeboxes in there but nothing I would put a valuble record in.
     
  16. Those early changers were brutal machines.

    Some short .wmv video files of a few different players at this link.

    The 10-35 is notably cringe worthy. :eek:

    http://www.myvintagetv.com/updatepages1/changer videos/changer_videos.htm
     
  17. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Mastering Engineer Your Host Thread Starter

    John's was (is) the 10-50. An awesome sounding beast.. In fact, when working just right, it sounds better than any system I've ever heard from that era. It's amazing sounding. And this is why:

    The Victor Automatic Orthophonic Victrola 10-50 is an acoustic machine building on the orthophonic technology of the famous Credenza. The horn of the machine seems to be the largest that Victor ever built for acoustic home-use machines, 35" x 17" horn opening, and a ca. 8 foot long horn folded in itself.

    http://myvintagetv.com/updatepages1/1050/victor_1050.htm
     
  18. "35" x 17" horn opening, and a ca. 8 foot long horn folded in itself"

    Wow, that is something else. A beautiful monster of an acoustic player with a gorgeous cabinet.

    That overhanging magazine spindle must be built like a tank to be able to safely hold and deliver twelve 12" records.

    "If properly adjusted, this machine works reliably and with no damage to the records.
    All the surfaces the record slides on are felt covered and on my machine, 1000s of records played have not resulted in a single breakage or chip."


    I guess "properly adjusted" are key words for record longevity with continued use. Pretty amazing that they sold over 10,000 of these back in the day.

    Would love to be in a room listening to one some day. The 10-70 model also sounds very interesting.
     
  19. Greg1954

    Greg1954 New Member

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    I recall one veteran collector saying that at one time, maybe 30 years ago, those 10-50's were unwanted machines. Haul aways for 50 bucks. Not anymore. :) Of course, back then, finding repro parts for the broken pot metal changers was probably a no go.

    You could always use a machine like that in single play mode, basking in the sound of that huge horn. Probably what I would do if I had one.
     
  20. Greg1954

    Greg1954 New Member

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    Looking at the playback of the Ted Weems side linked to in post # 106 through a frequency analyzer sees sonic content up to about 13,000 cycles, with a steep drop off after. Just a bit shy of real hi-fi, if one considers 15,000 cycles the minimum requirement for the high/treble end.

    A few years earlier, when Victor was still using the Western Electric system, I'm not sure what the maximum treble reach ever was, but one of my Paul Whiteman sides from 1928-ish (Western Electric) measured to about 11,000 cycles when I looked at it once. Only looking at it because it seemed exceptional upon listening, I don't usually make a habit of doing that.:)
     
  21. Greg1954

    Greg1954 New Member

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    Wonderful sound on that 1928 Okeh. I don't know what it is, but Columbia Viva Tonal and Okeh Electric have a little extra touch of liquidity that I don't hear on Victor records, even though they were all on Western Electric. Okeh, in 1925 tried to cobble together their own electric recording system, True-Tone, like Brunswick with Light Ray, and changed with the Columbia buy in 1926.
     
  22. Greg1954

    Greg1954 New Member

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  23. Yovra

    Yovra Collector of Beatles Threads

    Just aside from the great sounds; it's excellent music! Fine orchestras and arrangements!
     

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