Does HDCD make a noticeable difference?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Monosterio, Mar 10, 2013.

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  1. Monosterio

    Monosterio Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    South Florida
    I asked this in the thread about Neil Young's first four albums on CD and got no response. Hopefully it goes better here :) :

    How much difference does HDCD make? I don't have--nor have I ever had--an HDCD player, yet I think my HDCDs of Neil's early albums and Buffalo Springfield's Again sound great. In fact, when I compared the Again HDCD remaster to the original CD, I couldn't hear much difference. Other HDCDs I've had, like Joni Mitchell's Blue, sounded worse than the original CDs, but I figured that was a matter of mastering EQ and not HDCD.

    So, again, how much difference does HDCD make -- and how different does an HDCD-encoded disc sound with and without decoding?
     
    Uncle Meat likes this.
  2. Todd W.

    Todd W. It's a Puggle

    Location:
    Maryland
    I believe it to be hit and miss. I also think it's up to the listener on this forum. I have some Grateful Dead stuff I find just sounds flat and muffled. Though, I also have the Reckoning two disc set that sounds fantastic to me. Some on here don't like the Tom Petty stuff, I do. To me, the Neil Young stuff is also OK but not great in my opinion. That is why I hardly listen to a lot of people's opinion on this forum about sound. Way to many factors. Unless it is something like say Rush's Vapor Trails. Here was another worthless opinion.........:evil:
     
  3. elgreco

    elgreco Groove Meister

    I do have a Harman Kardon HDCD player. A red light indicator tells me when I have inserted a HDCD. Sometimes it's obvious because it's indicated on the disc or the in booklet, but other times there's no telling by its outer appearance that a certain disc is a HDCD. I, too, take it with a grain of salt. I can't even come up with examples of great-sounding discs right now. Apart from that, I never compared them directly to non-HDCD discs with the same content. Eventually, it all depends on the mastering and/or the mastering engineer.

    Come to think of it, the Mike Oldfield HDCD remasters from circa 2000 do sound nice. As well as Rancho Texicano, a 2CD comp from ZZ Top, that's not even indicated as a HDCD on the cover.

    Re-reading the OP's question - I don't think my player is able to turn off the decoding. The red light simply comes up when a HDCD is inserted and the machine plays it as such.
     
  4. tomd

    tomd Senior Member

    Location:
    Brighton,Colorado
    Really disagree on the Neil Young HDCDs (if we are talking the first four here).They are among the best cd remasters bar none
    I have heard and I was quite amazed how great they sounded even compared to his earlier DVD-A and 24/96 DVD offerings of the same tracks.
     
    jerrygene likes this.
  5. Todd W.

    Todd W. It's a Puggle

    Location:
    Maryland
    Respectfully,again, I disagree. I have Harvest in every incarnation possible including the original vinyl. I bought the HDCD just hoping for improvement. I do not like any of them. That is why I believe the OP needs to listen for himself. That is all I was trying to say. I have had this conversation before with those who agree with you. See, it took approximately 10 minutes for a different opinion. :D
     
    Paully likes this.
  6. mgb70

    mgb70 Senior Member

    Location:
    Orlando, FL
    Owning a lot of titles that are HDCD encoded my reply would be - I just don't know, maybe. I have a Rotel CD player that decodes HDCD but when playing a disc it automatically decodes. I can't turn HDCD decoding off to A/B. Playing the same disc in another player isn't an apples to apples comparison. I think it sounds better but that could be purely in my head seeing that little HDCD light ignited.
     
  7. I Love Music

    I Love Music Forum Resident

    If you're not already aware of it, you may find this thread helpful in which our host describes the decision he and Stephen Marsh reached to no longer perform HDCD conversions on their masterings.
     
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  8. John D.

    John D. Senior Member

    HDCD is pretty controversial around these parts. Some labels still use it in their manufacturing process, Neil Young, and the Grateful Dead come to mind.
    Kevin Gray still uses HDCD in mastering the Audio Fidelity releases. I have several OPPO players that play HDCD discs and they all sound pretty good to me.
    I'm sure there differing opinions to follow, but that's just the way it is. :agree:
     
  9. Stone Turntable

    Stone Turntable Independent Head

    Location:
    New Mexico USA
    I'm a mad fan of the Grateful Dead and Neil Young, and bought an HDCD player mostly to play the large number of box sets, Dick's Picks, and new or remastered albums (Garcia, Car Wheels on a Gravel Road, On the Beach, Wrecking Ball) released in HDCD.

    In general I hear a subtle improvement and I'm glad I made the investment. At its best iIt's a more open, warm, analog flavor of clarification in sound. The notion that HDCD sounds WORSE seems absolutely crazy to my ears. It's nowhere as good as stellar vinyl and SACD, but I treasure my Golden Road and Buffalo Springfield boxes. I think the wholesale dismissal of HDCD is dead wrong, even though I concede it's a format without a future.

    It doesn't surprise me that Steve Hoffman forswears HDCD in favor of plain vanilla Red Book, because he knows how to make the CD format sound about as great as I've ever heard it.
     
  10. lugnut2099

    lugnut2099 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Missouri
    I never could tell much of a difference, but I'm not a "golden-eared" type listener anyway. For those who don't have HDCD-capable players though, doesn't Windows Media Player automatically decode HDCD if you play the disc in your PC's drive? Or does that depend on your drive or sound card? I know I've used it to listen to HDCDs, but I'm not sure if it's a standard feature on everything or if the hardware matters.
     
  11. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    In WMP, you have to go to options, devices, speakers, and then properties to enable it.
     
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  12. Masmusic

    Masmusic Compact Discs Forever!

    Makes a huge difference, I wish all recordings had HDCD decoding!
     
    vegafleet and audiomixer like this.
  13. rjp

    rjp Senior Member

    Location:
    Ohio
    i can notice it for sure.

    a great test would be if you have the neil young CD single with "interstate" on it. i think it's the "big time" Cd single.

    about halfway through "interstate" the HDCD light shuts off and you can actually hear the difference without the HDCD encoding. it does give a "bigger' sound.

    and why does that CD single do that? no idea, i have been trying to find out for years to no avail.
     
  14. warp2600

    warp2600 Forum Addict

    Location:
    Hungary
    I have a few of the Mike Oldfield remasters, a Chaka Khan Greatest Hits HDCD and Tales from Topographic Ocean in the HDCD format. My receiver decodes HDCD and the Yes title gives amazing detail, dynamics and instrument separation almost as good as an SACD. The Chaka Khan CD also sounds great (wonderfully defined bass and overall sound). The Mike Oldfield titles are not as great as Tales or Chaka but I can hear some details and dynamics which I don't seem to hear on ordinary Redbook.
     
  15. DennisF

    DennisF Forum Resident

    I think the Neil Young CDs sound terrific in HDCD. I wish more CDs had that encoding.
     
  16. GreenDrazi

    GreenDrazi Truth is beauty

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    HDCD has 3 to 4 features or options that can be used/implemented by the mastering engineer. One of the most significant features is Peak Extend which allows the 16bit CD to decode to 20bit, thus potentially providing the benefits of a higher bit rate. However, many CD’s, or in my observation, most CD’s don’t use the Peak Extend option - i.e., Audio Fidelity CD’s, Van Halen remasters, etc. Neil Young, The Cars and some others do use Peak Extend and IMHO, do benefit from its use.

    The downside to HDCD is when it’s used on non-HDCD players and/or when Peak Extend is not used, as its use of the LSB (Least Significant Bit) to achieve the extra bits goes to waist. In other words, a 16Bit CD is now only a 15Bit CD.

    Most of my playback is now file based and I only expand HDCD encoded CDs when they use Peak Extend. Foobar, dBpowerAmp and CUETools all offer the ability to detect and decode/expand HDCD encoded files.
     
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  17. makruiten

    makruiten Well-Known Member

    Location:
    The Netherlands
    The issue with HDCD is that if you play it in a standard CD-player, you get heavily compressed peaks. This is because part of what HDCD does, is that it contains information to decompress this peaks back to normal, in order to get a few bits of extra sound (from 16bit to up to 20bit). This is possible, because bits are distributed linearly over the signal and our ears perceive sound more or less logarithmically. This means that the upper few dB's contain a lot of information (thousands of possible steps per dB, much more than our ears can distinguish) and that information can therefore be stretched out without noticeable loss of detail. The advantage is not a increased dynamic range, as some would think (I'm not aware of any masterings that contain 16bit=96dB of dynamic range), but increased detail in the lower dB's. For example: at -76dB there is only one step left per dB in a 16bit signal, which is noticeable. If we now move the entire signal up a few dB's before downsampling to 16bit, the same sounds that were previously in the -76dB area now contain a little extra information. Extend the peaks, and they are at -76dB again, but they retain the extra information.

    Now to answer your question: judging from the numbers I doubt there will be much of a difference between redbook and HDCD. I would spend my money on the best possible master, wether it's on redbook, HDCD or SACD. This difference is far bigger and I find it much more enjoyable. I even think the reason that a lot of people enjoy SACD's so much, is that they contain more dynamic masters most of the time, because of the different audience they are created for. But since you own some HDCD's and the playback in standard CD-players is far from optimal, I would really consider to buy a HDCD player.
     
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  18. gd0

    gd0 Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies

    Location:
    Golden Gate
    Too many variables. Too difficult to compare. Too difficult to confirm peak extension is actually employed.

    Rather than waste time fretting over it, I simply got a HDCD-capable DAC and be done with it. More of a peace-of-mind move than anything, but it is an all-around good component (EAD DSP-7000 III).

    That done, some HDCDs sound very good in and of themselves, others less so. I'm content to attribute SQ to mastering, knowing that peak extension is enabled when needed in the background.

    Lazy? Yes. In this instance, ignorance is bliss.
     
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  19. Ellsworth

    Ellsworth Forum Resident

    I had been listening to huge amounts of Dead live recordings with no HDCD compatible player. When I went to HDCD this Winter I noticed a significant improvement. Of course my whole system got a significant boost because upgraded from an old CD transport to a Mac Mini (using the same DAC). If you are big into the Dead I think you owe it to yourself to try. Otherwise there may not be enough material availabel to justify it.

    That being said, I really do enjoy the sound quality on Emmylou's Wrecking Ball and Chris Isaak's Baja Sessions. For what it's worth, I think "Everyone Knows this is nowhere" sounds great in HDCD.
     
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  20. From what I can tell, many labels only partially understood how to get the maximum benefit from the format. So many HDCD releases were hit or miss in sound quality. I actually prefer the sound of the HDCD Doors' albums without the HDCD format engaged.
     
  21. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    HDCD decoding makes a noticeable difference if the disc has peak extend. HDCD decoding makes a less noticeable difference if the disc has the gain enhancement feature enabled. The difference with gain enhancement is that you'll be able to hear more into the fadeouts and faint tails, but you need to listen carefully. The difference with peak extend enhancement is much more noticeable and should be obvious to any of us here. Decoding a HDCD disc that just has the transient filters flagged does not make any difference.

    Most of the Neil Young HDCD discs have peak extend. They should be decoded for best listening. Otherwise you're getting a compromised playback of the recording. I listed out a bunch of HDCD titles that I have and the HDCD features that are enabled in each in this post.

    I don't have a HDCD DAC so I use software decoding. I use computer as source for playback so software decoding is viable for my listening. I use CUETools to postprocess the rip and create a 24 bit version that has the HDCD decoded.

    Decode one of your Neil Young discs that has peak extend and compare that with the standard 16 bit rip. You'll hear the difference.
     
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  22. Davidmk5

    Davidmk5 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Marlboro , ma. usa
    I have noticed some great sounding HDCD titles once i got something that decoded them .....

    Emmylou Harris- Wrecking Ball
    the Cars - st
    elvis costello / burt bacharach

    all sound really nice ,could be the different player ? i have Also heard average one's , the HDCD is certainly not gonna save a horrible sounding cd .
     
  23. Monosterio

    Monosterio Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    South Florida
    Thanks for the responses, everyone. As someone who can't hear a significant difference between the redbook and stereo SACD layers of hybrid SACDs (especially Steve's), I think I'll stay exactly where I am equipment-wise and not seek out an HDCD player. I doubt any difference I would hear would be big enough to warrant the purchase.
     
  24. KeithH

    KeithH Success With Honor...then and now

    Location:
    Beaver Stadium
    It's been said here that HDCD only matters if peak extension is used, meaning there is no benefit without peak extension.

    In my experience, the overall quality of the player is more important than whether or not it decodes HDCD. If an HDCD-compatible disc is well-mastered, you will get very good results on a quality non-HDCD-decoding player.
     
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  25. ranasakawa

    ranasakawa Forum Resident

    It up to the mastering.
     
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