Doors DCC Vinyl

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by count.d, Feb 20, 2002.

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  1. count.d

    count.d Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    England
    I'm probably going to upset someone here considering Steve Hoffman did the cutting.
    I have all the Doors DCC albums on vinyl and I recently bought the CD box set "Complete Studio Recordings". I couldn't believe how good the cd boxset sounded compared to the DCC vinyl.
    The vinyl sounds compressed and muffled. The CD sounds open, spacial, powerful and refined.
    I thought the vinyl was taken from original master tapes.
    I don't play cd's that often because I just love vinyl. My system is LP12/Armageddon/Ekos/XX-2, Naim 72/Hicap/250 so it's pretty good at retreaving the source.
    The CD player was a £1,200 Denson, under a 1/3 the cost of my deck.

    Sorry Steve!
     
  2. Mike V

    Mike V New Member

    Location:
    Connecticut
    As a side note, I have the vinyl and gold CD of "Waiting For The Sun" and I much prefer the CD. The sound gets rather etched toward the inner grooves on my copy, and this is not a problem I have often with records on my table (albeit not state of the art). But the Gold CDs are where I stop my quest for the most excellent Doors out there. Steve did a bangup job on these.

    I'm particularly fond of LA Woman. For some reason, Morrison sounded great on the verge of death, and the DCC captures the mood perfectly.
     
  3. Humorem

    Humorem New Member

    Location:
    LOS ANGELES
    Doors on DCC vinyl

    You have got to be kidding. When the Doors DCC vinyl doesn't sound amazing, it's time to check your stylus. It may have broken off.

    There have been significant improvements in turntables, arms, cartridges, phono stages, vibration control, motor control, isolation, electromagnetic radiation dispersion, and on and on. You can read about them in my catalog; I'll send some of it to you by email if you like.

    Bottom line: the differences between LP and CD playback are greater than ever. I have easily 200 LPs that are better sounding than the best CD I ever heard, anywhere, anytime. Some of those are the DCC pressings, and the Doors would definitely make the cut.

    Record playback is by far the most difficult area of audio, and by far the most satisfying when you get it right. If you think CDs can hold a candle to good LPs you have work to do. My table sounds twice as good as it did a year ago and five times better than it did three years ago-- because I have spent the money and done the work to make that happen. It ain't cheap, but the enjoyment I've gotten from my favorite records has returned that investment I made in time and money back to me ten times over.
     
  4. Mike V

    Mike V New Member

    Location:
    Connecticut
    Nope, I wouldn't post it if I were. But really, I can honestly say that my copy of Waiting for the Sun is the only DCC, and only RTI pressing for that matter with the problem I mentioned to this degree. It is quite possible that the LP is defective, but I am not hearing things, and magically, my stylus is working perfectly well on say Willy & The Poor Boys and Zep 1 (Classic), Pet Sounds, etc... There is definitely an etched grainy sound on my Doors disc, believe it or not!!!

    I am in total agreement though that properly mastered LPs sound much better than properly mastered CDs. I used to have a collection that was 90% CD and 10% vinyl (about 10 years ago). It's more like 35% CD and 65% vinyl now, so you're preaching to the choir. Some call that nice warmth "coloration of the sound" by the vinyl, but I just think vinyl is more natural sounding. Only way to know for sure is when you compare final results to the original source, and Steve could certainly shed some light on that.

    But I totally agree that my playback system needs help. Like I've said before though, I won't pass up killer software in favor of hardware upgrades. I can only afford one or the other, and the software will win every time! Either that, or I try to build, for example, a DCC collection 20 years down the road, paying 20x what I am now!!
     
  5. Paul Chang

    Paul Chang Forum Old Boy, Former Senior Member Has-Been

    If you are so disappointed, would you consider part with your The Doors DCC LPs. I'll be the first taker for L.A. Woman if the price is right. :)
     
  6. Humorem

    Humorem New Member

    Location:
    LOS ANGELES
    Some recordings will show up playback flaws more than others; that could account for the problem.

    Or you may have a defective pressing.

    I'm a big fan of that DCC title, may favorite of the four, and there is nothing etched or grainy anywhere on my copy. That's a sound Hoffman hates more than anybody, so he would be loathe to master anything erring in that direction.

    Get another copy (easier said than done) and take the one you have and play it on someone else's rig. We'll get to the bottom of this one way or another. Keep me posted. And don't sell it to Paul Chang.
     
  7. Henry Love

    Henry Love Senior Member

    Location:
    Chicagoland
    Just listened to The Doors DCC Vinyl, DCC Gold and Non-DCC Complete Studio Recordings to refresh my memory. 1.DCC Vinyl. Very smooth,open and natural like I grew up listening to but better. 2.DCC Gold. WOW!Very smooth and warm. 3.Box Set. Good but not close.Definitely harsher, voice good in some spots,instruments not as natural sounding.Bought this on strength of someones rave review on the DCC board a few years ago.Can't believe everything you read on the net. IMO.
     
  8. Angel

    Angel New Member

    Location:
    Hollywood, Ca.
    My thoughts exactly; the DCC Doors LP's and Gold CD's rule. The Elektra CD box just has some clever EQ but it is indeed harsher. Of course, it all depends on your stereo, and some people seem to like it like that! Not moi...;)
     
  9. Humorem

    Humorem New Member

    Location:
    LOS ANGELES
    Has anyone ever done the shootout between the DCC vinyl and MOFI vinyl on the Doors first album? It will make a believer out even the most die hard MOFI collector.
     
  10. Ronald

    Ronald Forum Resident

    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    I'll try it. I haven't listened to the MoFi Doors in many years. That might tell you something as I am a fan of the Doors.

    While we're at it, does anyone have a copy of DCC LP (or CD) LA Woman that he or she would like to part with? ;) It is the only one I don't have and I would like to hear it for myself.

    Send all donations to...
     
  11. Ronflugelguy

    Ronflugelguy Resident Trumpet Geek

    Location:
    Modesto,Ca
    "THE DOORS" on DCC VINYL RULES Years ago, I owned the MOFI "THE DOORS", I played it twice, and then I directly returned it to MOFI, letting them know that this was the worst sounding release I had purchased from them. It seemed to have much distorion on it . MOFI stated that the distortion I heard was on the master and never questioned my equipment. The DCC did not to my recollection sound anything like the tape that the MOFI was cut from. What I hear on the DCC is all the atmosphere in the studio!!!!!:) I agree with Tom, as your equipment gets better, you can really hear more from vinyl.:p
     
  12. Paul Chang

    Paul Chang Forum Old Boy, Former Senior Member Has-Been

    You'll have to get in line for the L.A. Woman LP, Ronald. ;) Or if you feel lucky today, call Tom to see if he's willing to sell you his personal copy. :D FYI, I won't consider parting with my DCC gold even if I get the hold of the vinyl version. :p
     
  13. Todd Fredericks

    Todd Fredericks Senior Member

    Location:
    A New Yorker
    Do you think DCC (when it's ready again to release stuff) will reissue the Doors vinyl again, also the other titles that have been waiting in the wings? Or will S&P? What do you think the chances are? I have 2 of the Doors titles and sat on the fence (uncomfortable thing with splinters) too long for the others...

    Todd
     
  14. Patrick M

    Patrick M Subgenius

    Location:
    US
    I have a CD I'd consider parting with. You can have it for free if you *promise* me that Lute & Co. will beat Duke in the tourny.

    Seriously, e-mail me if interested. Got anything you want to trade?
     
  15. Patrick M

    Patrick M Subgenius

    Location:
    US
    How about a shootout between the MoFi Zep II vinyl and the Classic? :)
     
  16. Ronald

    Ronald Forum Resident

    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    I don't know about the round ball team this year. A lot of freshman. They can be great (blow out of Maryland earlier this year) or bad (blown out at McKale by Kansas later on). Oregon also smacked the team on the chin twice.

    I just hope it isn't Duke again. Their "fans" (bandwagon riders) still haven't stopped the smack.

    I may have a CD to trade. Let me think about it first. I'll e-mail you if I can part with the disk.

    :)
     
  17. Jeffrey

    Jeffrey Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    South Texas
    Hey Patrick,

    How much money do ya wanna put on the other side of the devils in blue? Mr. Walton has some awesome genetics (a Dead Head w/ $) but the last good time he will have in Cameron was the Dead show in '82 that only us ole' folks fondly remember.

    Show me the $,
    Jeffrey
     
  18. Humorem

    Humorem New Member

    Location:
    LOS ANGELES
    They're both wrong, but one is more wrong than the other!
     
  19. count.d

    count.d Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    England
    Just listened again.

    On vinyl LA Woman, track Riders-Storm Morrison's voice is just too muffled. Compared it to the Complete Studio Recordings version and the cd blows this away.
    There's nothing wrong with my deck set-up, other non DCC lp's sound good.
    Also the LA Woman lp comes in a paper inner sleeve which has caused particles of paper dust to be rubbed into the grooves. This has happened from the manufacturer. I always put the lp's into Nagaoka sleeves as soon as I buy them. This dust causes the LA Woman DCC to be a bit crackly.
     
  20. Humorem

    Humorem New Member

    Location:
    LOS ANGELES
    I'm about to make a very important point. It's important to me anyway, and crucial to my business. It concerns the sine qua non of good reproduction: tonality, without which you have not nothing but a world of problems. This has led you and will continue to lead you to make major errors in buying decisions, which, when these problems are corrected, will cause you great gnashing of teeth when playing the stuff you shouldn't oughta have bought.

    It goes like this. First off, make sure your CDs and LPs play back tonally identical. Neither one should be brighter, duller, bass shy, fat or any other quality -- they have to be identical or you're building your stereo house on sand.

    There is a very easy way to do this, taught to me by none other than the master himself. Sync up a DCC LP and the same Gold DCC CD of any title you own both of.

    I recommend Elvis, Roy or Nat as these are favorites and sound superb. Steve always uses the DCC Creedence Gold CD & LP of "Willy And The Poorboys".

    Then, as they are playing, switch your preamp knob back and forth between the two, adjusting for volume of course. If you hear anything other than say a tad more sweetness, warmth, air, spaciousness on the LP -- all the things that analog LPs should do better -- you have problems.

    You are not alone. Most audiophiles use faulty material to tune in the sound of their stereos. I've heard a million of them.

    One of the longest running battles in recent history was between those who preferred the sound of the Classic Records remastered RCA catalog, and those who, like me found them horrendously bright. Now if you set your system up around those bright records, adjusting for the thin sound along the way with interconnects, etc. they will sound fine, more or less. But now the average good sounding used record you buy will sound dull. That can't be right.

    Statistically, if you buy records that were made any time say from 1958 to 1980, the bell curve distribution will put the great majority of them in the middle of the tonality range, with some bright ones and some dull ones at either end of the curve.

    That whole curve should be shifted in your system if indeed Jim Morrison's voice on a DCC LP is muffled.

    Or get ten opera records that were recorded in the late fifties-early sixties, and listen to the voices on them. Opera records, such as those on London and RCA, almost always have dead-on midrange tonality. It's uncanny how natural they sound. Spooky even. (Makes you wonder what the hell they were thinking when they miked Pop records of the time. They knew how to do it right, but they must have thought the public would like it better with more pizzaz on the top, so voila, we get voices with boosted harmonics that make your dog get up and join your wife in the other room -- your wife may not be an audiophile but she knows bad sound when she hears it.)

    Ten records makes the chances of getting all bright ones very unlikely. They should sound a little muffled compared to your non-DCC pop CDs, if what I suspect is true.

    What are some other good records to test with?

    Try these: Zep 1 and 2 on the new Classic Records LP's. They should sound very very different from each other, especially on Plant's voice. NIGHT AND DAY DIFFERENT. You tell me which one is right. On your system I'm guessing II.

    One pair of interconnects can dramatically alter the tonal balance in a system. One. It might make more difference than the preamp or amp or speaker so be careful.

    To sum up:

    I believe your phono "chain" is duller than your CD chain, and this is causing you to hear faults in the DCC vinyl.

    Or your whole system could be on the dark side of neutral, which might make you prefer goosed up CDs that restore some "life" to the music.

    I have been grading and selling records for fifteen years. I probably have played more records than anybody on this forum by golly. I have to. It's my job.

    There is no question that Hoffman's LPs, taken as a whole, are tonally neutral. Maybe one out of ten or twenty isn't to my liking musically or sonically. For me, that is still the best track record in the history of the world.

    My advice is to do the tests I have outlined and let us know what happens. If you buy lots of records and CDs that make a dark system sound correct, you are going to have to replace most of them when you finally restore your system's neutrality, and that can be very expensive.

    Or have two systems: one for the stuff you already bought, and one for the stuff that you buy in the future. I have a friend who owns a second CD player just to play his Rhino CDs. Dull player + bright Rhino CD = neutrality. He could probably play that Doors Box just fine.
    :);)
     
  21. Patrick M

    Patrick M Subgenius

    Location:
    US
    Humorem, I'm just guessing you don't like Bernie Grundman's work...
     
  22. Humorem

    Humorem New Member

    Location:
    LOS ANGELES
    You got that right. Every once in a while he does something I like. The new Graham Nash is wonderful.

    But play it next to the Steve Stills 1st LP he cut. They can't BOTH be right. Don't they listen to these things before they release them? You have to wonder.

    He cut much better records in the '70s you know. He cut the original Tapestry, and when you find the right one it beats the "audiophile' version hands down. Go figure.

    It's the old saying backwards: he ain't getting better, he's getting older.:)
     
  23. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Thomas, the new Graham Nash has been totally remixed, right? Really nothing to compare it to...;)
     
  24. Paul Chang

    Paul Chang Forum Old Boy, Former Senior Member Has-Been

    Well, I haven't met a person whose hearing gets better with age. But you've got to admit that Michael Hobson is quite a savvy businessman at marketing his products.

    Let's just hope that Master Hoffman is blest with good genes in the hearing department. :D
     
  25. Humorem

    Humorem New Member

    Location:
    LOS ANGELES
    A good record is a good record, remix or no remix. And the remix works in most ways. Some songs were pretty much left alone, and they sound like my good original pressing, with just a smidgen of boost on the top, which I can live with.

    It's such a great album I can overlook a few faults.

    Just think of these opening lines:

    "When your love has moved away..."

    or

    "I used to be a king..."

    Makes me want to play it right now!
     
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