DSD vs PCM: can you hear the difference?

Indeed; and also unwise to assume that it is not, as seemingly endless debates here and elsewhere testify

Tim

 

I'd say here is where honest successful ABX test (i.e 9+ successes out of 10 attempts) comes in, IMV. By honest I mean using actual musical content, not just a fade-in/fade-out or silence (unlike my 100% success ABX )...

 

More of an emotional benefit rather than functional.

 

Thanks for the clarification.

 

Can anybody explain me why Saracon defaults to +6 dB gain when converting from DSD to PCM? My Pioneer A/V Receiver, which plays DSD over HDMI or USB but converts to 176.4/24 PCM also has the option of leaving the level untouched or do a +6 dB boost.
I don't like, when playing SACDs or DSD files over USB, how my Pioneer A/V Receiver sounds when +6 dB gain is on, I prefer to leave it al + dB. Also, when doing my DSD to PCM convertions using Saracon (which I explained before, does a better job at converting DSD to PCM than my receiver), I set gain at +3.5 as it uses to give excellent results/sound with different kinds of music, but never at the +6 dB gain default as it sounds overly loud and agressive to my ears. I also tried, when converting DSD to PCM, leaving gain at 0 dB, but I find it lacking in detail and sounding dull.

 

^^^ You should be safe & try to stay within the SACD Scarlet Book recommendations (i.e. DSD signal peaks shouldn't exceed +3.1dBFS DSD, or -2.9dBFS PCM). FYI, a large number of recent Uni Japan SACDs have peaks close to +3dBFS DSD, so do Steve's CCR SACDs. In very rare cases, however, DSD mastering may exceed the Scarlet Book recommended peak levels, most notably Michael Jackson - Thriller [US SACD].

 

A second HDMI DAC is on the market that can convert DSD:
New Essence version II hdmi dac coming soon »

I've asked Essence if the device can convert HDMI DSD to SPDIF DoP, which would be amazing, and would be a cheaper alternative to the Vanity HD card.

Their response:

 

As far as I know it's in SACD specification that DSD volume should be set so that when converting to PCM +6 DB gain would result a PCM-file with a volume close to 0 DB. But in reality the volume of SACDs varies a lot. Some AF SACDs have very low volume and something close to +9 DB gain is needed. And I've seen SACDs with very high volume where only 1-2 DB gain is needed.

What I do when converting DSD to PCM with Saracon I use Foobar with sacd-plugin and dynamic range plugin. I set gain to 0 DB in sacd-plugin and use dynamic range plugin to check the volume. Then I adjust the gain setting in Saracon accordingly.

 

There isn't a DAW that allows native DSD editing. I doubt it's even possible. As far as I know Pyramix is the only DAW that can "natively" open DSD-files. But when you apply filters like EQ it converts DSD to 24-bit 352.8 khz PCM. So editing DSD in Pyramix results DSD-PCM-DSD conversion.

 

That's what I thought.

 

This is different from what Gus Skinas told me when I looked into it a couple of years ago.

 

I am not sure this is true.

What about Sonoma?

 

Sure there is: Sonoma.

Of course it is, there were many papers presented at AES Conventions in the late 90s/early 00s by the likes of Eastty, Thorpe, Nishio, Angus, etc. showing how you process signals in the 1-bit domain. To avoid some of the restrictions of 1-bit processing, DSD-wide processing is used in Sonoma (i.e., multi-bit DSD, which is NOT PCM).

 

Hello Hoffmanites!

My Uncle decided to try a new affordable studio reference DAC. The Nu Prime DAC - 9 Studio Reference Converter. PCM 384 and (drum roll please) DSD256. It has one analog in put, five PCM inputs and one DSD input. And it's only £800 ($1700 CAN). All Native DSD. Buy two Nu Prime DAC-9s and get the third one Free....Kidding! This DAC will play back up to DSD256 in the native mode. Come on! Whip out those credit cards. Don't be shy!

We got this to try for a month for a review. If it sucks real bad should I lie and say, "It was as if the singer was right there in the room with me. I could even feel his nasty breath....It sounds better than the source!.." Or the truth? We might get it for free if we give this DAC a real good review. Or that's what was implied.

It sounds pretty lifelike. It is a definitely a top-of-the-line Studio reference DAC. Is it the best DAC we have heard? mmmm......Nope! unfortunately it can only do A/D two channels at a time. Useless for even converting a half inch quarter track tape to Pro Tools. Only good for stereo masters. We would have to buy 8 of them ($1600×8) to transfer 2 inch 16 tapes.(Almost $15 000 Including PST & SGT). And what about 24 tracks? Or 32? Some of you wonder how can our reference DACs be so costly. Here is your answer. $1600 -. $2500 CAN is cheap for a Studio Reference DAC for stereo operation. 64 channel Studio Reference DAC is another matter. We get quite a few projects that are either (44-46 tracks) two 24 tracks synchronized together or (60-62 tracks) a pair of 2 inch 32 track machines sync together.
This is why our DACs are $60 000 or more. 62 channels of DSD128 or 24/176.44 or 24/384 gets expensive.

Down to Native DSD. At the studio I find that DSD64 or higher sounds just like analog. That's our untouched DSD files converted directly to analog. As for some DSD disk in a player or DSD DAC that converts it to PCM first I have no idea. If it is going to convert the Native DSD file to PCM first and then converts the PCM t analog then why bother with Native DSD?
Real Native DSD converted to directly to analog is the only way to hear Native DSD.

 

On our studio reference DAC there is a difference. We have heard the difference.
A while back I transfered a 1 inch 8 track to Pro Tools. Two simultaneous conversions were made: PCM 24/176.4 and DSD256.

I mixed the PCM tracks OOTB taking it through the analog SSL4064 G / G+ board. (All the mutes, fader moves, panning, EQ and Aux sends/return moves were saved via automation.)

Then I mixed the DSD256 tracks all OOTB converting the DSD512 to analog to run through the SSL4064 G / G+ board. The stereo mix from the DSD tracks sounded like I had mixed from the tape itself. The PCM 24/176.4 stereo mixdown file sounded great but not like the tape. My Uncle argues what if you had mixed the PCM files ITB?

Engineers have been editing in Native DSD mode for some years now.

 

Engineers have been doing Native DSD editing, EQ, compression and even mixing for years!

 

DSD is not dead. And for making perfect copies of analog to digital DSD256 or DSD512 it is flawless. For the last 6 years every analog tape we copy or backup to Pro Tools has a PCM 24/176.4 and DSD128 or DSD256 copy.

But as a consumer market it is tiny. The Sony Mini Disk is dead. BETA is dead. LASER DISK is dead.

 

I find it unlikely that I could hear the difference.

 

Do you have any experience with the Tascam DA 3000 recorder in the dsd domain? I see it being popular with the studios and curious to know how it compares with other dsd ad converters.

 

I believe that conversions are different. I used DSD64 files for comparision. When converted by JRiver sound was clearly not exactly the same, but when I switched to Auralic Aries Femto I cannot distinguish between them, in fact sometimes I feel I prefer PCM. Well, now I am mostly using old (but superb), DSD-less DAC, so I cannot even compare )).

 

Check out the Essence HDMI DAC. I have one. Very satisfied. I hear no difference between straight DSD and PCM through the Essence.

 

When converting analog tapes to digital, high-rez PCM can sound very good. But I prefer DSD by a slight margin, it flows more natural and better in transient response.
PCM can have a slight edge in clarity in the midrange, but it depends on how the DSD converter handles the noise shaping process.

All IMO.

 

So many variables makes it hard for me to judge. Especially mastering. I have Superaudio discs w dsd that sound great, others aren’t really better than CDs. I have dsd recordings that convert to pcm that sound spectacular.

 

Nope! But other engineers tell me it's pretty good. Problem is when you have to convert 62 channels of analog into the digital domain you are way way into niche territory. To be honest as long as it keeps the signal Native DSD it's pretty hard to screw up. That's the beauty of DSD. Even converted incorrectly it sounds good. (Please don't quote that. They will come and take me away and send me to the Phantom Zone.)