DSD vs PCM: can you hear the difference?

It depends on the source. But yes even DSD concerted to PCM first can sound amazing.
No argument there. For example a PCM 24/176.4 copy of an analog quarter inch master of a Metal record with a DR of 3 sounds no different than the Native DSD256 version. But we find DSD is better at retaining the breath and width of the stereo image than PCM does. Again at the studio. Sometimes the clients wants it mastered someplace else. At that point it is out of our hands. And you would be surprised at how many so called Native DSD isn't Native DSD. But that's another story.

 

Some people can't. Some people can't hear the difference between a 320kbs MP3 and Wave 16/44.1. And some people think Pepsi and Coke taste the same. (I loved New Coke.) It depends on the source and your equipment.

 

What differences do you hear in native DSD between:
64fs
128fs
256fs
512fs

I love SACD/DSD64fs as a consumer format. But I know it could be even better. DSD 64fs was a compromise done when stereo and 5.1 Mch data should fit into a DVD 4.8G disc, using 2:1 direct stream transfer.

 

A common marketing myth about DSD vs. PCM is that when blind listening tests were done comparing DSD to PCM, there was a consensus that PCM had a fatiguing quality and DSD had a more analog-like quality. This was proved to be total marketing BS. Even Sony no longer supports DSD.

The truth is that in recent blind studies they've proved that high-resolution PCM and DSD are statistically indistinguishable from one another. Considering that nearly all DSD recordings were edited, mixed, and mastered in PCM, it is no wonder.

 

Sony supports DSD and SACD. They recently released a new 4k blu-ray player that supports both SACD and DSD up to 11,2Mhz.

Did you mean Sony Music?

 

The 128 and 256 variations are slightly more transparent and revealing than 64. There are diminishing gains after that point.

 

Yes, what he said.

I really shouldn't give my opinion on here. In Mastering Room B we could hear a one cell organism pass gas and comment on the fidelity of the far*. In a mastering studio the ability to hear detail and full frequency range is everthing. Not 20 - 20 000hz....But 15 - 26 000hz. (Don't ask). You would be surprised at how many Rap artists are mixing in infrasonic bass (below 20 hz). Are converters are silly expensive. The passive monitors are beyond expensive. The room is fully treated. We even have a pair of custom made Grado mastering headphones with a custom made Grado all tube headphone amp. You will never hear what we here. We need to hear what is really happening on the tape or off the file. But sometimes I think we are too removed from the aversge Joe. We do have a cheap DSD player to test disks but it doesn't convert straight to analog so I hate to use it.

 

The DSD 64fs studio file always sound a bit better compared to the produced SACD disc played in nearly any SACD player, I'm right?

 

I'm on the fence on this. DSD is not a big deal for me I have a few downloads I listen to them using an Oppo 105D (analog outs) Mostly I'm a vinyl /24/96 needledrop guy.

I'm planning a A/D-D/A converter upgrade Merging Technologies Anubis Merging Technologies - There is a bit of a buzz about them right now.
Bottom line is being able to record or playback up to DSD 256 worth $500 more? My experience with recording needledrops at 24/192, it's hardly worth the difficulty dealing with the large files. A new PC might make that easier.

It's very doubtful I will record any vinyl in DSD so the question is will the new converter sound better than the Oppo 105D for any DSD playback options I may need. I'm still thinking it might be worth $500.

 

Case 1 PCM file
---------------
analog input -> ADC converter -> pcm file -> mastering -> DAC converter -> analog output

Case 2 DSD file
---------------
analog input -> ADC converter -> DSD file -> DSD to PCM conversion -> mastering -> PCM to DSD conversion -> DAC converter -> analog output

Any file conversion add more noise to the sound. There is a rule "where there is no signal, there is no noise". In PCM files the noise floor is evenly distributed along the signal. In DSD files the noise floor increases linearly with frequency.

So, if the signal quality decreases with each conversion why should we continue to struggle with these extra and unnecessary conversions? For better sound?

 

Ahhhhhh....Can a Canadian plead the 5th Amendment?.

John isn't here the moment please leave your questions at the end of tone. BEEEEEEEP!

Oh damn blast! Yes...I admit it.

 

You took the words right out of mouth? (Sung like Meat Loaf) You are incorrect about DSD.
DSD is really a 1 bit system. Or rather it only needs one bit to work because it only records changes in voltage as opposed to absolute voltage (it's o.k. if no one understand this because I really don't know what I am talking about either. I just grasp it by the skin of my teeth!) Unfortunately 1 bit means a signal to noise ratio of 6 db. You cannot disperse that much noise anywhere in the range of human hearing. It's impossible. It would be a loud HISSSSSSSSSSS!!!!! So the solution was to take the noise and raise it above the range of human hearing. (That's above 20khz...Way above.) You can't hear the noise floor of DSD. Unless you can hear above 20khz. But you can't just take the noise floor and put it on a shelf somewhere (super high shelf) without some side effects. That's the point of DSD512. To start out with a higher signal to noise ratio so you have less to move to the shelf.
Does this make sense to anyone? It all sounds like Science fiction to me.

Pardon me. Down to you question. Sorry I am at work and the automated SSL4064 G +/G console has broken down. Do you know how automation data is saved on this thing? 3 1/2 FLOPPY DISKS. Where am I supposed to get
f****n floppy disks in 2019!? Or wait....here is a big box of floppy disks in a recycling bin. Oh goody! Anyway you have all good points. While PCM does degrade with each conversion DSD (DSD256) doesn't degrade. DSD is the Rocky of the digtial world. It can take a lot of abuse. If we have to do dreaded A - D - A - D conversion to add in some tube EQ from the Manley Massive Passive then we will do it only in DSD256 or DSD512. The Beatles stereo remasters went like this: Analogue - 24/192 PCM - analogue - 24/44.1. So even the 24/44.1 Flash Drive went through this silly conversion. The only thing different about the 24/44.1 files is that they bi-passed the peak limiting (but not the tube limiter. Used mostly as a gain stage) and the 24 bit files weren't dithered down to 16 bit. The untouched 24/192 files (except edits and fades) must sound f****n amazing. The two extra conversions were stupid and pointless. Yes analog all tube all passive EQ sounds great but the two extra conversions kind of cancels the tube sound out. Pitty we will never get to hear the Fab 4 in PCM 24/192. And why didn't they do a DSD256 conversion as well? Plenty of converters are capable of PCM and DSD conversion at once. For example when they did the Rolling Stone remasters back in 2000 they did three simultaneous conversions:
16/44.1, 24/96, DSD64.

Proper Native DSD should be only: Analog - Native DSD. You take the disk or file and it gets converted directly to analog. If Sony or other companies are selling people players/DACs that convert the DSD to PCM first then that is wrong and it is not real DSD. And they should be ashamed of themselves!

 

A better converter will always improve sound. But the only way to get reference DSD sound like we have in our studio is for you to buy a reference DAC like the Nu Prime DAC-9.
A £730 ($1500 USD) Reference converter.
It can play up to PCM 384 khz and Native DSD 256. It has a high end preamp in it. One analog and 4 digital inputs. Volume controlled in 99 0.5 db increments. The Nu Prime DAC-9 incorporates the AK4490 32 bit processing chip which is considered the best in the world.

FYI: Real 32 bit operation is impossible. Even the best 24 DACs don't operate at 23 bit operation. 22 bits at best. Why? 24 bit has a noise level of -144 dba. The noise level of a resistor is at -140 dba. So unless you are gonna spray your motherboard with Liquid Nitrogen it ain't gonna happen. Unless you make a DAC without resistors. Most reference or high end converter operate at 21 bits. Most consumer converters are 19 bit at best. No doubt this DAC adds 8 more zeros to every sample. The processor internally calculates the 24 bit signal to 32 bits. But it's not real 32 bit. But the AK4490 is a kick as* chip. It's at the heart of our 64 channel DSD/PCM converter. Well it's got 32 AK4490 chips working together.

Wait a bit longer and save up for the last converter you will ever need. Even of you have decided on another DAC makes sure it has the AK4490 processor chip in it.

The Blu-Ray Oppo 105D is without a doubt the best Blu-Ray player in the world and a damn good DSD player as well. Does it convert the DSD directly? Because if you haven't heard Native DSD played back straight to analog then you haven't heard Native DSD. The AK4490 is a world apart from a lot of other high-end DAC chips.

And it makes coffee too...Real good high end DSD coffee.

 

NSD is only when you move from a higher bit rate to a lower bit rate. Adding dither to DSD is ridiculous. And the problems that exist in the PCM world just don't exist in the DSD world. However some engineers will say if you are converting PCM 24/192 to DSD128 then you are going from 24 to 2 bits so you should dither. Agreed if you were going down to 2 bit PCM. DSD is only the changes in voltage and not the recording of the absolute voltage so the rule doesn't apply. Dithering only applies in the PCM world and only when going from a high bit to a low one. For example: 32 to 24, 32 - 16, 24 - 16.

 

I would say Most people can't hear the difference. John M.

 

And most people aren't audiophiles. We are a scarce breed. But these days most people don't listen through separate components. In my day thousands of years ago in the 80's everybody in Southern Ontario any had a stereo system. With big full range (42 - 18 000hz) speakers. Most people today can't tell the difference because they are listening on little computer speakers or on music on their phone. On my Galaxy S III phone I can't tell the difference between a upper shelf 361 kbs variable bit rate MP4 and a Wave file. But on my stereo I can. No contest.

I found out what this MP3 320kbs VS 16/44.1 sound test was. They had 5 seconds of mono harp music. It kept switching every 5 seconds from MP3 320 to Wave 16/44.1. That's there test? What a joke! LOL. No one has a 5 second music memory. It's like sticking your hands in cold water then hot then cold again every second. Same sort of nonsense. So that test doesn't prove anything.

 

Or....I could be wrong.

 

In your experience would this NuPrime with the AKM 4490 chip add that certain something to my 10 year old and loved Esoteric sa-50 with AKM 4432 chips?
Want to get a dac for streaming , downloads, improving YouTube videos audio like my old Benchmark which is in my small video system.
Esoteric sa50 and Nu Prime dac9, Thougjts?

 

Ahhhhhhhh.......John is out right now. Please leave a message at the end of the beep.
BEEEEEEEEEEEP!! Oh Jesus. O.k. confession time. (Shhh!) We got our 64 channel DSD256 / PCM / 14 bit TDSAPCM Brown-Bur DAC at a big discount (75%) if we agreed to turn out a certain number of Native DSD releases every year. I love the sound of DSD. We would have turned out the same number of DSD releases regardless of said deal. (And whenever our site comes back on line you can go and buy (they ain't cheap guys!) our overpriced Native DSD 64, 128 and 256 releases. And you haven't lived until you have heard a binaural recording of Beethoven's Ninth in marvelous DSD256 sound for $59.98. Or you can buy the inferior PCM 24/192 file for $39.95 I am not biased towards DSD in any way. Pinky swear!

Which sounds better. To me DSD 256 sounds way better than 64. But 128....Nah! And it does depend on the source material.

What is 14 bit TDSAPCM? The lengthy manual that came with our DAC says it's a new experimental high definition codec created by Brown-Bur and Sony (not joking) that combines the best of DSD and PCM. This is the first and only DAC to have it. We are the guinea pigs.
They claim that is sounds more analog than analog which sounds like bull**** to me. I am afraid to use it. It all hush hush. Personally I think it just a 14 bit DSD which would be....Never mind! I am not even supposed to be talking about it. We are the first Beta testers.

We just got in some 6 DASH 1/2 inch tapes from what looks like the Chicago 17 tour....I think...Or Chicago 18 tour..Not sure....No songs listed....Great. Assuming these 33/35 year old tapes even play I would like to do a real 360 degree 5.1 mix. If possible. It's weird. Looks like they ran two Sony DASH 3324 in sync. One tape reads on the can label: Danny's kit 1 and another reads The Band 1. These two are synchronized together for the first part of the show. Danny's Kit 2 and The Band 2 is for the second half and so on. Funny, Danny's kit takes up 24 tracks on one whole machine. Maybe I will pan the bass and kick someplace else besides the middle just to pis* some people off. That would be fun. (Just kidding!). I promise you this: Danny will be loud in the mix!

Most DASH tapes this old will not play. The DASH tape format is the same formulation as High 8mm - pure Metal. More so than a Type 4 cassette tape. The information must still be there but for some reason they just would play. awhile back Uncle Jack discovered why. When these DASH tapes are being recorded the machine and the tapes are running really hot. These tapes are stored in nice cool humidity controlled places. That works great for analog tape but apparently not so much for digtial. The tapes cool down and something wierd happens when a digital tape cools down. So now 25 years or whatever you thread the DASH tape thing up into your Sony 3348HR and nothing happens. Not a peep. Why? Temperature. My Uncle found out that if you heated the DASH tapes and heads to the same temperature back when data was being written to them that they would play. (YEA! Celebration times come on! ) Until that is everthing cools down again. But the trick figuring out the temperature and not damaging the tapes and read heads when heating them up. There is a little more to it than that. it's a secret we have kept to ourselves until now. Other studios will find the DASH tape restoration procedure to be very tricky. It sounds easy but it isn't. I don't know why it works but it does (even on ADAT tapes) 50% of the time. We have had couriers that bring us DASH tapes that were stone cold. The cold or the dropping of temperature does something to the tapes. Who knows?

 

You did note that that article was "marketing"?

edit: I see you did!

 

I understand the DSD vs. PCM test that proved DSD is no better than PCM was done with non native DSD material. Reminds me the harp test.
But then maybe I am biased. Most of these people writing these articles have never heard a fresh Native256 DSD transfer straight from analog. Trust me (pinky swear) the DSD transfer sounds exactly like the analog but not PCM. If record companies want to screw with our work that's a separate issue. And then they claim that DSD sounds better because the mastering is different. All we do to the Native 128/256 album is edits, fades, crossroads and normalization. And mastering engineer that is adding compression or excessive EQ to a Native DSD file has missed the point. Native DSD sounds like analog. Left alone.

I know several engineers who will take a nice DSD256 file, convert it to analog to add analog processing to it and then reconvert it to DSD256. Now because it's DSD it still sounds good but it's no longer Native DSD anymore. But technically it is. The file was never converted to PCM. So they can and do stick a Native DSD label on it. So be careful. quite a few Native DSD albums are not really Native DSD. Check the insert. It should say no conversions to analog or PCM.

 

Utube audio is pretty well a done deal. Utube needs to raise it's standards. No more 240 resolution 98 kbs MP3 audio.

The NuPrime DAC-9 is a reference comverter. So it is good enough to be used in a mastering studio so it should improve the sound of any CD transport player with a digital out. The Pre amp in the Nu Prime is a high end state of the art preamp. And a better analog front end always makes digital sound better. You could have the best DAC in the world but if it's analog stages are all cheap 1983 consumer VCA chips then you would be bent over and ahhh served......

 

P

Some advice. Forget Hi-FI stores. Call up a major supply of Pro audio gear and ask them about their line of DSD recorders. All the pro line is Native DSD. All your analog stuff will sound like analog stuff. Only the professional or high end audio does Native DSD right. All the Pro stuff is good. Then you WILL be recording your vinyl to DSD. Because of fake-wanna-be-convert-to-PCM-first DSD players/DACs DSD has been bad mouthed. "Sounds the same to me as PCM 24/192..."

Listen, because I am 324 pounds and if you don't listen .... I shall fall on you. LOL LOL Seriously though you get a REAL PROFESSIONAL DSD recorder to record your tapes or vinyl YOU will be the engineer. And all your DSD recordings will be REAL NATIVE DSD recordings. All the problems that you associate with PCM Will be gone. And you will be 100% sure that your tracks are real NATIVE DSD because you did them yourself.

No dude....I really will fall on you....So ahhh pay heed.

 

Would TASCAM DA-3000 qualify as professional?

 

I know.

But most audiophiles wont buy Pro equipment like digital converters, pre amps etc. Why? Cause the Pro audio gear is to cheap compared to high end consumer gear that has buildt in some **magic things** that suppose to benefit sound quality