DSD vs PCM: can you hear the difference?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Denti, Mar 19, 2016.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Kal Rubinson

    Kal Rubinson Senior Member

    Location:
    NYC
    Your description implies more hassle than is true in practice. No NAS is needed for ripping. You can use your PC/Mac with the appropriate software and a suitable SACD/universal player. The first time requires some thought but, after that, its kind of trivial.
    Many. Try searching at AudiophileStyle.com for info and assistance.
    More than that when you go to multichannel!
     
    jpelg, Ham Sandwich and Kyhl like this.
  2. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    If it's more hassle than ripping an ordinary CD or even a DVD-A or BD-A disc, then it's more hassle than I care to deal with:)
     
  3. George P

    George P Notable Member

    Location:
    NYC
    The Denon DCD-1600NE handles DSD natively, without converting to PCM. They confirmed this for me via email.
     
  4. Kal Rubinson

    Kal Rubinson Senior Member

    Location:
    NYC
    More than ripping a CD but less than ripping BD-A, imho.
     
    patient_ot likes this.
  5. Mr Bass

    Mr Bass Chevelle Ma Belle

    Location:
    Mid Atlantic
    Thanks to you both for your contributions to the thread and my apologies for the belated query. I had a question about how the ADCs, whether for PCM or DSD processed aperiodic sounds (noise) algorithmically. I started a short lived thread a little while ago but never got an answer (maybe the question is silly)?
    Digital audio encoding of aperiodic sounds (noise)?

    I am not referring to any electronic noise developed within the components but only to the encoding of ambient noise compared to musical sounds - specifically the interpolation algorithm for the instants of time between the samples. I can see how periodic sounds can be very accurately interpolated but am not sure how aperiodic sounds would be. Thanks.
     
    john morris likes this.
  6. I know about WavPack5, dBPoweramp has it and I have tried it on some of my non-PC devices and as expected, it doesn't work. I don't want a computer on my audio system so I stick with DSD over PCM which I also do with dBPoweramp and played by a Sony X-800 UHD/SACD player connected to a Topping D50 D/A converter.
     
    patient_ot likes this.
  7. john morris

    john morris Everybody's Favorite Quadron

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    It is really a shame when I have to block rude or aggressive angry members who want to argue for arguing sake. But in this case I felt it was neccesary. We don't appreciate trolls here. If you want to make trouble Patient_ot go visit the Snake Pit. My posts are always funny and I always try to see the other guys point of view. If you can't post in a civilized fashion I rather not here from you at all.

    You read one post sir and got triggered. Did you not read my other posts that came after? And I don't mind being selectively quoted if it is for a good reason but you were quote mining me.

    I am always joking. "Even a child could do it" referred to how simpler DSD was as compared to DSD. It is hard to believe that you thought I was literal. Come on! You thought I meant a real child? I refuse to believe anyone is that moronic!

    I said in that post that "..I barely knew what I was talking about..." Or did you miss that part Patient_ot? I never claimed that what I was saying was a fact. Anybody who read that DSD post would realize that I was admitting that I could be wrong which I admitted in a post to Brilliant Bob. I even told you to read it! So why the Hell would you ask me to "present proof?"
    News flash member: For some reason I am unable to post any links, or copy any pictures on to this site. We have been discussing DSD for days and all of a sudden out of nowhere you jump on the Forum and insult me and demand that I prove something to you. Back off!
    Why didn't you just say, "I think you are incorrect. Etc, etc." No problem. I am incorrect all the time. You don't need to be a jerk to make your point.



    Don't call me liar and don't show me disrespect.

    Oh, if it isn't clear YOU HAVE BEEN BLOCKED.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 19, 2019
  8. jeffmackwood

    jeffmackwood Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ottawa
    Yeah. While it's easy to make a bit-perfect copy of a Blu-ray disc (for back-up purposes) I've never invested the effort to rip individual tracks for access via my servers, unlike my SACD collection.
     
  9. john morris

    john morris Everybody's Favorite Quadron

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    It is nice to hear from members who understand the math involved. Me, not really. I spent three years in Special Ed class learning how to read, spell and figure out basic math. I did manage to eventually catch up to everyone else but that took another 10 years. You would be surprised at how many audio engineers don't know this stuff. They should. Thanks to members like you and other members I am always learning something new.
     
  10. john morris

    john morris Everybody's Favorite Quadron

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    In all honesty I have never tried to copy DSD data off a disk. We copy DSD files all the time in the studio. And we do get the occasional master tape sent via DSD file. Or a analog multitracks as DSD128 or DSD256 files sent via Web or on a Flash Drive.
    I wonder why? Surely high definition portable players play DSD files. And DSD files downloaded you just play off a hard drive.
     
  11. john morris

    john morris Everybody's Favorite Quadron

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    Sounds good to me.
     
  12. Kal Rubinson

    Kal Rubinson Senior Member

    Location:
    NYC
    I do that for my pure music BluRay discs since I do not want to see the same instrumentalists/singers sitting/standing around the same way over and over. I keep the video for ballet and opera. Today, Abbado's Mahler symphonies.
    I do it almost daily/casually.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2019
  13. jeffmackwood

    jeffmackwood Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ottawa
    I must confess that I have no Abbado in my collection - at least none that I can recall. However I see that the Ottawa Public Library has a few DVDs (in DTS 5.1) and a CD of his, including a recording of Mahler's Symphony No. 4. I just might borrow a copy and give it a listen.
     
  14. Do you copy DSD data off a disc everyday? Why?
     
  15. Sterling1

    Sterling1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Louisville, KY
    My OPPO-205 was set for DSD but in that condition it will not manage bass so I reset to PCM. I can not hear any difference except better bass distribution.
     
  16. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    It’s less hassle than retrieving, loading, unloading and re-filing a CD every time I want to hear something different...
     
  17. I prefer plain stereo native DSD without any bass management even if I have small shelf speakers (B&W 601) to DSD converted to PCM for bass management. Did you know that most DSP IC's don't do processing on high rez? They're limited to 44.1-48/16.
     
  18. Kal Rubinson

    Kal Rubinson Senior Member

    Location:
    NYC
    Because I still have hundreds to rip and acquire new ones every couple of weeks.
     
    art, patient_ot and jeffmackwood like this.
  19. Kal Rubinson

    Kal Rubinson Senior Member

    Location:
    NYC
    OK.
    Yeah but there are enough weighs to do DSP at high bit rates, so that is not a limitation.
     
  20. I don't get your point, English is not my mother languaje.
     
  21. Kal Rubinson

    Kal Rubinson Senior Member

    Location:
    NYC
    What a surprise to me. I meant to say "Yeah but there are enough ways to do DSP at high bit rates, so that is not a limitation." I do it in software.
     
    Kiko1974 likes this.
  22. Sterling1

    Sterling1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Louisville, KY
    Well, I'm processing multi-channel SACDs so the OPPOs bass management is a must since my 5.1 prepro is an analog unit without capability to process proper bass crossover from each channel.
     
  23. Now I get it, thank you. I envy you for being able to rip SACD's. I had an inexpensive Pioneer BD/SACD player to rip my SACD's but unfortunately it stopped working a year ago and right now I can't afford to buy a new one so I can rip SACD's again. I'm eager to get my The Planets/Mehta & New York Philarmonic SACD by Analogue Productions ripped but that's impossible in Spain. I'd like to listen to it through my Topping D50 D/A converter that can do DSD over PCM but for that I need it ripped but that's impossible in Spain.
     
    patient_ot likes this.
  24. Ecki

    Ecki Forum Resident

    In my case for a very simple reason. My equipment supports stereo only and the (integrated) amp does not have HDMI in, so i'd have to use the player's analogue output. On the other side the DSD file data can be sent bit-perfectly to the amp via USB, yielding the best SQ in that system. So the player itself can also be a less expensive one (Pioneer 170 for ripping).

    Sorry if i misunderstood your point of not ripping DSD data.

    BTW: My main focus is music, so i'm looking for SACDs of albums i like, hoping for significantly "better" SQ. That did hardly happen, but my ears are rather old now...
     
  25. john morris

    john morris Everybody's Favorite Quadron

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nope. Got a SACD playes at the studio but none at home. Unless...You know... someone wants to donate one...Maybe..

    The new Studio PCM archive format is 24/384.
    Any DSD converted to PCM 24/384 should retain the Native DSD quality. I say " should" with caution. As for where would you find a converter that does 384? Mmmmmmm......Ahhhhhhh....mmmm. Good question. Keep looking...

    This is the biggest myth in HI-FI today that more high frequency response somehow makes better sound. Balderdash! My feeling is that frequency response up to 20 khz or higher can actually make music sound worse if it is not recorded and or mixed properly. Go back to the early 60's when all vinyl cut off at 10 khz. For example my Mother's 1961 stereo copy of Byron Lee and The Dragonaires: Jamaica Ska. The record produces nothing above 10 khz and it sounds great. The stereo album is all mixed only hard left - hard right. Strange. They list every piece of recording and mixing equipment on the back of the album cover. Even right down to the microphones they were using. It was recorded live to an Ampex 300-3 1/2 inch three track. My Mother's copy was given to her by Byron Lee himself.

    Confession: Jamaica is a small Island. And among the upper classes everyone knew everyone else. My Mother used to work at the same company as Byron. And if you threw a party back between 1956 - 1963 in Jamaica more than likely The Dragonaires would be the band you hired. Real small island!

    Back to the issue:
    This 20 - 20 000hz being a pro standard is really new. Up until the early 70's all the multi-tracks cut off sharply after 16khz.

    The famous Ampex 300 series: At 15 ips.
    300-3 1/2 inch 3 track, 30hz - 15khz +-2db
    300-4 1/2 inch 4 track, 30hz - 15khz +-2db
    300-8 1 inch 8 track 30hz - 15khz +-2db
    Or 40 - 14 000 hz +- 1 db.
    Or 25 - 16 000 hz +- 3 db.

    The Ampex MM-1000 (world's first 2 inch 16 track) 30 hz - 15 khz +-2db @ 15 ips.

    The Famous Studer J-37 (1 inch 4 track)
    30 - 15 000 hz +-2db @ 15 ips
    50 - 18 000 hz +-2db @ 30 ips

    The forgotten SCULLY
    284-8 (1 inch 8 track) 35 hz - 15 khz @ 15 ips
    284-12 (1 inch 12 track) 35 hz - 15 khz @ 15 ips
    At 30ips both machines: 50 hz - 18 khz
    The 1 inch 12 track was only 1 db noiser than the 8 track model. 60 Scully 284-12 were sold.

    all this great sounding music was made in the 60's despite this machines cutting sharply after 16khz. Even during the 70's top 2 inch 24 track machines were only flat (- 2 db) down to 40 hz. Don't remember hearing any complaints about records lacking bottom end back then.

    Most people can't hear a difference when you go from Native DSD to PCM 24/192. For those that can tell the difference I feel your pain.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

molar-endocrine