DSD vs PCM: can you hear the difference?

Wouldn't be a problem for us. But it's just that we deal in files on computers or on tape, or Flash Drives. It has never come up. But as you say copying DSD to DSD is not hard or impossible if you have the right equipment or you know what you are doing.

 

TEAC Hi-Res Editor v1 build 0069

"This two-channel waveform editing software is capable of converting and editing high-resolution DSD and PCM files with support for up to 11.2MHz DSD and 384kHz PCM formats."

TEAC Hi-Res Editor | TEAC

Supported OS

Windows
OS : Windows 10 , Windows 8.1 , Windows 8 , Windows 7
Driver : Windows standard driver (WASAPI), ASIO2.1

Mac
OS : OS X El Capitan (10.11) , OS X Yosemite (10.10) , OS X Mavericks (10.9)
Driver : Mac standard driver (Core Audio)
*Mac version : 11.2MHz DSD/DSF is not played back natively, but converted during playback to another supported sampling frequency.

 

Excellent.

 

I record the needledrop from some time in DSD128 (5.6 MHz) and then I convert it to PCM 384/24 and I apply a brickwall at 50 KHz to remove the huge noise created by DSD above 60 Khz and under 10-15 Hz. I make some easy processings and then for more in-depth processing I convert again the needledrop to PCM 192/24 because the DAW app or PC limitations. Everything is fine and finally the processed needledrop sounds much better. Extended soundstage and punchy vibrations of the pedal drum.

 

Not sure what you are responding to. I rip SACDs to multichannel DSF files and I just finished ripping the audio from Abbado's Mahler series on BluRay discs to multichannel FLAC files.

 

How do you rip BD-Audio discs to FLAC? I did it once around 3 years ago with Rush' Moving Pictures BD-A and it was a pain in the @s$ and I don't quite remember how to do it.

 

1. Make MKV backup.
2. Extract and convert to FLAC with X-RECODE 3 (or other tool).
3. Tag with MP3Tag.

 

Thank you! I forgot to say I'm using Windows 10.

 

I do tend to ramble on a bit so excuse me if I go off on a tangent. But I think I was somewhat addressing your issue even if I did come at it sideways.

All my experience with DSD is in the professional field. We don't deal in SACD disks. Maybe those disks have extra protection. I don't know. In the studio we don't have problems with copying DSD files. That is my point. That is why I say purchase professional equipment because you can always turn this copy nonsense off. But some people on here think I am being some sort of an elite snob (not you sir). The most expensive stereo converters I have seen are high end DACs. Yes our converters are the price of a car but they convert up to 64 channels of analog to PCM or DSD.

yes, if you have the right equipment and know what you are doing it is easy. I had a friend who copies DSD files all the time.

I will give you an example of another common problem but in the video world. The playing of PAL DVDs or PAL BLU-RAYs on North American players. Believe it or not most people (who are not Videophiles) don't know about NTSC or PAL. And have no idea that a quick purchase to Amazon for a Region Free Player will solve their PAL disk woes. They are OOP Classic Period Doctor Who's going for as much as $729 CAN (The Web Planet PAL DVD). And they are people who don't know anything about Region Free Players and will actually pay these crazy prices.

But they are well informed people who don't know that if they have: a laptop with an optical drive with an HDMI output and a modern HD television that they already have a region free player. Just download the free VLC Player which they probably have on their lap tops already. VLC Player has no region code lockouts. And it doesn't recognize any copy protection either. Which means you can make bit for bit copies of any PAL or NTSC DVD to your computer. It has to be done in real time though.

Not going off on a tangent. I am showing how most people have a region free DVD player and in their homes and don't even know it. And yet many North Americans crave to play those PAL disks.

My brother still plays his DVDs through the players composite output. He isn't even getting 480i lines! I told him you can get a cheap good Blu-Ray player that will uprez/upscale his DVDs for under $100 but he doesn't seem to be interested.

My point is a lot of people are unaware of their options. During the 80's and 90's many so called audiophiles were unaware of VHS / Beta HI-FI (AFM sound). And even more audiophiles were unaware that in Europe tri-layer Professional Video machines allowed for: 625 PAL video, HI-FI sound, and a stereo 16 bit track recorded on a third magnetic depth layer. That's right: video, stereo HI-FI track and a second stereo soundtrack recorded in PCM 16/44.1. All on 3/4 inch professional video machines. But probably no one heard of them.

Yes, as you can see from my many examples the right equipment and knowledge go along way. But people have to keep an open mind .

 

Despite the belief of some most vinyl isn't 20 - 20 000hz. Not saying it's impossible but at 33 1/3 RPM you are looking at 30 - 18 000 hz. (Damn good). For direct to disk cutting or half speed mastering this doesn't apply. Most cutting lathes have a high pass filter that blocks anything below 30 hz. If your phone preamp is good it should have a 30 hz low cut filter as well. Either way waiting until 15 hz is way overkill. I could see 20hz but 15 hz. It is impossible to cut infrasonic bass on a record. And even if the lathe could cut it no cartdrige could play it back.

The qualtiy of your DAC and it's analog front end will be more important than bits or sample rate used. Steve made those great analog sounding DCC disks all at 16/48.

 

In the late 80's and the 90's many people in Europe knew about Laser Disc as the best domestic video format to play our favourite movies and even some of us dared to play multistandard Pal/NTSC Laser Disc player, which were pretty common, and import our LD movies from the US and Japan. That's how I got to watch with the best possible quality at the moment Van Halen's Live Without a Net (the Pal VHS was terrible as this concert video was shot to 16 mm and post produced to NTSC video and converted to Pal for release in Europe), the OT and Especial Editions of Star Wars or Independence Day. That was well before the DVD times. I don't know of a mid range and over 21" 4:3 TV in Europe that couldn't display NTSC natively.

 

I don't agree, I've seen needldrops done with mid range cartridges and there is frequency content beyond 20000 Hz, not much but it's there.

 

Were these cartridges MM or MC or high output MC? MM cartdriges don't produce frequencies above 10 khz. The designers use the resonance in the Cavalier (15 khz) to bring up the frequency response. It is not real high frequencies you are hearing with a MM but delayed frequencies caused by the cavalier resonance. This has been known for a longtime.
How do you know what you were reading wasn't just noise?

How old is this record? Is it from the 60's.
At 15 ips all the multi-tracks in the 60's bottomed out after 16khz. Even the few that could record at 30 ips like the Studer and the Scully bottomed out after 18 khz.

 

And yet most people didn't know that at least in the 70's and early 80's that you could rent or buy movies and television shows on 16 and 35mm film. A 16 mm copy of Star Wars would beat any Laser Disk with one had ties behind it's back. And this is my point. The Laser Disk was never the best format for films. In 1979 my Father brought home a film catalog.
Star Wars 16 mm $100
Star Wars 35 mm $250
This is from memory. Maybe that was the cost per reel. Don't quote me on it. Pretty sure....??


Yes but most people are not Videophiles. Back in 1987 I never heard anyone say, " You know cut at 30 per side a Laser Disk will give you 440 lines as opposed to VHS 250 lines.." MOST DIDN'T KNOW.

Let's stick to North America. We know that England at way way cooler toys then we did. Damn you Europe! Ahhhhhh!! I am talking about dumb clueless North Americans. Don't bring intelligent well cultured Europeans into it.

 

So this is the explanation of spikes at 16 KHz (like a brickwall without linear-phase filter) I found in some needledrops I made from old records (70'-'80). If they made the records direct from the master tapes limited at 16 Khz it make sens.

 

Where is my Uncle when I need him...
HELP!!

O.k. here goes. Hope this helps.
They didn't just go up to 16hz and then plop out to nothing. But they weren't very linear after 16hz. Unless they recorded at 30 ips. And with few exceptions all the microphones back then did bottom out sharply after 16 khz. The 17 - 20 khz stuff is probably there but to a tiny (you will never hear it) amount.

Ampex Famous 300 series from the 60's.
300-3 1/2 inch 3 track
300-4 1/2 inch 4 track
300-8 1 inch 8 track (1968)
All 30 - 15 000 hz +-2db @ 15 ips
25 - 16 000 hz +-3db @ 15 ips
22 - 17 000 hz +-6 db @ 15 ips
19 - 18 000 hz +-10 db @ 15 ips
I am looking at test displayed on a graph done in 1972.

Scully:
284-8 1 inch 8 track.
284-12 1 inch 12 track.
35hz - 15khz +-2 db @ 15 ips.
30hz - 16khz +-4 db @ 15 ips.
25hz - 17khz +-7 db @ 15 ips.
25hz - 18khz +-12 db @ 15 ips.
At 30 ips: 50 - 18 000 hz +- 2db

Even the Ampex MM-1000 (world's first 2 inch 16 track had similar specs.)

The Studer J-37 was the same but it frequency response didn't come crashing down after 16 khz. It did fall quickly but not in the suicide fashion as say Scullys for example.

 

What software are you using to do this? I am curious if I can match it with Vinyl Studio.

 

Could be yes. Analog isn't like digital. It doesn't just cut off dead at a frequency. For example: My old 1985 $180 Hatachi cassette deck. With Metal tape it could achieve
30 - 17 000 hz +-3db
40 - 16 000 hz +-2db (like a Scully 284-8)
But after 17 khz cheap two head cassette decks show their true colours. By the time you reach 19 khz you are - 10 db. And at 20 khz the test chart doesn't even show it. Most cheap cassette decks won't record a 20 khz test tone. You can record it but nothing will come back. I would have to ask Uncle Jack who used to cut records at RCA. But if 30 - 18 000 hz +- 3db was the cutting lathe response. (Not saying it is. This is just to make a point). It could be - 10 db at 19khz and - 16 db at 20 khz. And at those levels it doesn't really count. You might see it on a graph but no one is hearing it.

And I think this is what makes vinyl superior. Too often because of bad recording techniques or mixing decisions the 17 - 20 khz range often makes music sound uncomfortable. Just my opinion. Good sound is not about 16 - 22 000 hz +-2db. Look at Beatles For Sale. Recorded on a Studer J-37 at 15 ips. 30 - 16 000 Hz +-2db. And yet it sounds like an audiophile record.

 

Me, too.

 

As I said before, I never repeat myself.

DSD vs PCM: can you hear the difference?

 

You confirmed what a master engineer said somewhere on YT. And I tested this. I applied a High Pass order 2 at 24 Hz and a Low Pass order 2 at 18000 Hz (linear-phase filters) and now the sound is right. The Dynamic Range is unchanged. The Cymbals sound is crystal clear and natural. The stereo image enhanced. Music is more balanced. The subtle things brought music to life."Less is more". It seems all these things above 20 KHz are artifacts and noise. Thanks.

 

Thank you!

Are you using the TEAC Hi-Res Editor to "apply a brickwall at 50 KHz to remove the huge noise created by DSD above 60 Khz and under 10-15 Hz"?

 

No man, TEAC is for conversions. For needledrop processings I use a DAW app with VSTs.

 

This thread caused me to go back through my SACD collection to make sure I had ripped everything in it when, lo and behold, I found a half dozen or so titles that I had missed, for who knows what reasons.

They included Depeche Mode's Music For The Masses and 101. Dylan's Blonde On Blonde. And some classical (Reiner, Kreizberg, and Biggs).

So I pulled out one of my Sony BDP-S5100 players, found the AutoScript USB stick I had made (and saved), gave my printed instruction sheet a quick refresher read, and I'm currently ripping them in the background using SACDExtract's server method. Other than having to remember that, for reasons unknown, things only work when I insert the USB stick into the Sony's rear (not front) port, all is going smooth as silk, with a ripping speed (via Ethernet) running just below 3 MB/s (and just below 2 MB/s if I use wireless.)

Funny enough, I had thought that I'd ripped all of my SACDs, and my two Sony players were sitting in the garage, along with a half dozen other disk players in their boxes, awaiting my upcoming garage sale. I'm now reminded of their utility in SACD ripping and, just in case I ever acquire more SACDs, have decided to not sell them.

Jeff

 

Thanks again.
I am kind of new to this and I am trying to wrap my head around working with DSD Needledrops and processing.