DVD Format Wars, Part 2

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by Holy Zoo, Apr 20, 2004.

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  1. Holy Zoo

    Holy Zoo Gort (Retired) :-) Thread Starter

    Location:
    Santa Cruz
  2. daveman

    daveman Forum All Star

    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Thing is, just like with audio but probably even more so with video, not only can a picture only get so clear, there is the threshold where people won't be able to tell. It's asymptotic. Even pretending that this succeeds, then what? We're getting closer and closer to the point to where it just doesn't matter anymore.
     
  3. -=Rudy=-

    -=Rudy=- ♪♫♪♫♫♪♪♫♪♪ Staff

    Location:
    US
    I'll sit it out...I'm happy enough with DVD and rarely watch them now as it is. Thing is, the general public sees nothing wrong with today's DVDs, for the same reasons they have no use for SACD and DVD-A since CD is good enough for them. DVD's still a newer product (and VHS still is around and it's, what, over 25 years old now?)--I don't see why the electronics giants feel they have to make standard DVD obsolete so fast, other than profit margins. And so what if these HD-DVD formats come out? Will the industry have something else seven years down the road they'll want us to jump into? :shake:

    If these formats even make an appearance, you can bet someone like Pioneer will, once again, make a "universal" player. It's about all we can do these days, since nobody can agree on making anything standard anymore.
     
  4. Ed Bishop

    Ed Bishop Incredibly, I'm still here

    When I had a few minutes this past weekend, went over to HTF to check out the comments about the KILL BILL V1 DVD.....reminded me of how I don't really miss the place, for reasons I won't get into, although some posts were pretty spot on. Hadn't been there in ages and ages, but same old HTF...

    But some complaints about the image intrigued me, because, unlike many of those guys, I don't have a plasma TV, one of those huge projection jobs, or HDTV....just an RCA 27" that serves my needs, since I'm more musically inclined than visual, as many of us here would be...:)

    Anyway, one or two made a mention of how drab or messy some aspects of the film were on larger screens..and of course mentioned EE(Edge Enchancement)among other annoyances(apparently, EE is a visual equivalent of Eq manipulation of a master tape: trying to make it sound sharper, bassier or fuller by doing the listener's work for them, instead of mastering 'flat' and letting US set the tone). But on my RCA, the film looked great once I tweaked the colors and brightness a little.

    But I know where they're coming from: when I put the DVD into my DVD-ROM and fired it up, I began to understand....19" monitor may not be much, but PC monitors work with a different resolution scheme, and I saw the flaws some of the HTF members did, not readily apparent on a normal, analog TV. Take those flaws and increase the size of the screen and, well....there you go.

    What sucks is that one gets the impression the DVD format we're buying now is going to replaced by a higher-priced(if with yet higher resolution and better storage capacity)disc not compatible with the hardware we already own. There's no denying the video and audio compression that goes into these discs; current DVD's, for certain films, are visually limited right out of the box, and audio, in general, would not past muster compared to an AC-3 laserdisc counterpart(were such a lovely creature still available).

    But I agree with Jeff: HDDVD is something I want, and something that has to come. We all know basic DVD spec is the beginning, not the end. But I also understand how tired we are of buying the same title over and over, waiting for the next innovation and improvements that will cost us all even more than we've already invested.


    :ed:
     
  5. -=Rudy=-

    -=Rudy=- ♪♫♪♫♫♪♪♫♪♪ Staff

    Location:
    US
    I don't argue the need for a better format (I see a few flaws when watching some titles on my computer), but DVD has only in the past few years become a runaway success, and as a format it's not that old. My point is that once this new-fangled DVD comes along, at the rate technology is going, will it be just seven years before Sony or someone else cooks up yet another "must-have" DVD format that holds 75GB per disc? I just think it's way too soon. Throwing a new format into the market so soon will just confuse everyone...and the mass market's response to confusion is to stick with what they're already buying since they see nothing wrong with it. The higher-resolution new-fangled DVDs may have a niche market among the videophiles, but will that ever be enough to fuel the newer format and make it popular in the future? That's sort of where we're at with SACD and DVD-Audio right now...WE can hear the differences, but the mass market could care less.
     
  6. Michael

    Michael I LOVE WIDE S-T-E-R-E-O!

    I'll be hanging on to my 700+DVD's...I love each and everyone of 'em. They look just fine on my 32", 36" TV's...At this stage of the game, I'm grabbin them as fast as I can...especially the TV Shows:) I still have tons of VHS Movies yet to make a DVD appearance...doubt they ever will...Thankfully, I never got into the money sucking Laser Disc stage! The studio's made a ton on those! I was tempted, but the price didn't justify the means...
    I love Video as much as Audio...both essential to my life:thumbsup:
     
  7. John Moschella

    John Moschella Senior Member

    Location:
    Christiansburg, VA
    I completely agree. Just to add a few thoughts the market penetration of HD displays is not nearly large enough to support a mass-market HD format. In my case, with a FP set-up, I'll be able to tell the difference big-time, but I won't get the titles because the general public is perfectly happy with DVD as it is. So I'm not banking on anything, we'll all be using DVDs for some time.
     
  8. Michael St. Clair

    Michael St. Clair Forum Resident

    Location:
    Funkytown
    Kind of like how most people listen to boomboxes and portables (with cheap headphones)? Just as we can't expect mass-market penetration for HDTV yet, we can't expect mainstream success for high-res audio. Same thing.

    I will watch DVD for years to come (just like I still watch laserdisc for material that hasn't been rereleased in DVD); but HD blows it away.

    2.7% of households are actually tuning in HDTV today. 8% have DTV sets, most of which are HDTV. The CEA has estimated that by the end of 2007, 33% of households will be tuning in HDTV (I think that is optimistic, but 15%-20% wouldn't surprise me).

    I'd estimate that less than 1% of people who have HDTV have a set that can actually resolve a full 1920x1080i image. Most HD sets can only display about half of that resolution. If you've seen HD, you've probably only seen half of the potential.
     
  9. poweragemk

    poweragemk Old Member

    Location:
    CH
    I think what's key to remember here is that the DVD was meant to obsolete the VHS tape, not the laserdisc. It ended up doing both, to everyone's surprise, but not because of quality, necessarily. I think these new discs' success will be limited, in the same way LD was - those who care about quality enough to justify equipment and software purchases will do so, but those who liked DVD for the -convenience- will stay put.
     
  10. BradOlson

    BradOlson Country/Christian Music Maven

    Right on the money, Michael. As we know, each format has its pluses and minuses. Keep things standardized and make 99.9% of the public happy instead of confusion resulting in the same 99.9% of the public to say that they are content with what they have.
     
  11. TimM

    TimM Senior Member

    It's amazing to see people brilliant enough to design these things then be forced to put their stuff in the hands of complete idiots when it comes time to market them. Now instead of a winner and a loser we will probably have two losers. The politics need to be worked out before these things get to market. Lets see, we have two Hi-rez music formats, three recordable DVD formats and now probably two "Hi-rez" video formats. I think I'll have enough will power to sit this one out. (I hope)
     
  12. Pinknik

    Pinknik Senior Member

    Then there's the few anachronists who jumped into HD feet first and bought into D-Theater/D-VHS. Hell, at least they can actaully enjoy watching HD movies they've bought. I think Blu-Ray from Sony has the best "specs" so far, so I figure it'll lose just on principle, it seems the technically better of two products seems to lose the popular vote in the past (beta/vhs, early Intellivision/early Atari).
     
  13. Michael St. Clair

    Michael St. Clair Forum Resident

    Location:
    Funkytown
    I still might buy into D-VHS, if my cable company gets their firewire working. Buy a used or reconditioned D-VHS deck for $300 now, and be able to timeshift HD today (something I really need), or wait two years and buy a Blu-Ray recorder for $1000 or more? There's a Blu-Ray recorder in Japan right now for $3000.

    I'm not willing to buy D-VHS for the prerecorded D-Theater tapes, but cheap recording is nothing to sneeze at. And you get an extremely high quality VHS and S-VHS deck for playing your old tapes.

    I don't consider $300 or even $500 an excessive amount for an interim recording solution for the next 2 to 4 years. And the media is dirt cheap (melt a hole in a $3 Fuji S-VHS tape and you can use it for D-VHS)...I don't even want to think about that recordable Blu-Ray or HD-DVD will cost when it finally becomes available.
     
  14. BIG ED

    BIG ED Forum Resident

    Sooooooooooooooooooooooo glad I am NOT early adopter.
    Happy/Feel for those that take the first (and second, and sometimes third) hit for me.
    Only good thing is (as mentioned before) universal & backward compatibility is here too stay.
     
  15. Holy Zoo

    Holy Zoo Gort (Retired) :-) Thread Starter

    Location:
    Santa Cruz

    I guess this is why it annoys me so much. I always am an early adopter. Life is too short as it is, I don't want to wait 5 more years for an HD format to win --- I want my high def now, damnit!

    :D

    HZ
     
  16. BIG ED

    BIG ED Forum Resident

    Well, thank you Holy for taking the bullet, for 'us' ALL!!!
    Were would the industry be without YOU???
    If I need a HD fix, I go and hangout at the local B&B.
    Then after seeing that my SD picture back home look's 'better', I can leave with my wallet!!!
     
  17. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    Location:
    Texas
    You are soooooo correct here. Most popular HD (CRT-based) sets don't give you nearly the potential of HD. Hence my opinion that HD-DVD is going to be wasted for most consumers. Even as we move towards higher pixel-count DLP and LCD TVs, the color and other picture control settings are so outta whack that the picture gets trashed in the process. Can you tell I love my ISF set?

    I have 100+ DVDs and am mostly satisfied with their quality, even though I watch HD broadcasts for 90% of my TV viewing. I like to use use the analogy of well-mastered CDs vs hi-rez. Many of us would prefer a nice (SH-mastered!) redbook disc to a mediocre hi-rez offering. This is how I feel about a fantatic looking 480p DVD on a calibrated set vs. an HD-DVD on a factory-spec HDTV.
     
  18. Michael St. Clair

    Michael St. Clair Forum Resident

    Location:
    Funkytown
    Yeah, my set was calibrated by David Abrams, who has worked for (and comes personally recommended by) Joe Kane. David actually worked on Digital Video Essentials.

    Of course my set's guns can't resolve a full 1920x1080, but one of these days...
     
  19. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    Location:
    Texas

    :cool: Mine was done by Steve Martin aka Cheezmo. I have heard good things about David Abrams. Yeah, my 55" mits only has 7" guns, but I've seen what ISF'ing can do with 9" CRTs, and the picture can look absolutely 3D. :sigh: At least mine puts up really nice color, if not the absolute cutting edge in resolution. Focusing of the CRTs and obsessive congergence does produce great clarity.
     
  20. Vivaldinization

    Vivaldinization Active Member


    I encounter the same problem, which I think might be partly due to the on-the-fly deinterlacing most computer players need to do. Standalone TVs are used to showing interlaced video, so no processing needs to be done there, but computer monitors are another story, so players like PowerDVD manipulate the image before it hits the monitor to smooth out interlacing artifacts.

    NTSC TV shows in particular tend to look a lot worse on computer, especially if they're truly interlaced and not just telecined.

    I can definitely see where HD-DVD would be an improvement--basically its chief advantage would be allowing one to avoid the artifacts of a lower bit-rate, like edge enhancement, moire, grain, et cetera. Will it make THAT much of a difference? Will we all be home theatre enthusiasts in the future? Who knows. I just hope it's somewhat up to the consumer base.
     
  21. ACK!

    ACK! Senior Member

    Location:
    New Hampshire
    Music format wars: DVD-A Vs. SACD: No clear winner and for the most part, the general music-buying public has no idea what they are. The CD remains entrenched and the standard physical carrier for pre-recorded music.

    Many have adopted DVD as their video standard for movies, music videos, etc: DVD has had widespread acceptance and is becoming entrenched as the video standard. VHS is dying off and will probably be extinct within ten years, much like LPs and eight-track tapes once the CD caught on.

    I think Joe Average Consumer will be completely confused by these new formats and will likely reject them. I could be wrong - I predicted rap was a novelty that would be gone in a year or two when it first started - but I think my prediction is valid. At best, these new formats will be a niche market for videophiles...much like SACD and DVD-A is to audiophiles.
     
  22. d.r.cook

    d.r.cook Senior Member

    ARTICLE BELOW was really exciting--and depressing!

    Essentially, details the shop that's doing THE leading edge work as far as digital scan of original film for future applications. 4,000 lines of horizontal resolution? As everyone here knows, that's almost 400% improvement over max display on the market--and 800% or more beyond standard broadcast.

    He was working on about 40 films, as I recall, including the whole James Bond catalog. Even compared to Criterion standards, his work is dramatic improvement.

    Would've posted the whole article, but it's a charge online. (I read the original in the print edition a couple weeks ago.) He's using 600 G5 Macs . . . I think that's in the range of $75K just in hardware.

    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F00F1EF6345C0C7B8DDDAD0894DC404482

    ARTS AND LEISURE DESK | April 18, 2004, Sunday
    FILM; 600 Macs, 4,000 Lines, One Giant Leap for DVD's

    By FRED KAPLAN (NYT) 1522 words
    Late Edition - Final , Section 2 , Page 13 , Column 1

    DISPLAYING FIRST 50 OF 1522 WORDS - ON the second floor of an unassuming office building on the edge of Burbank, John Lowry is forging what might be the future of the DVD -- and, with it, the way that classic films will be stored, preserved, telecast and ... Mr. Lowry, who has worked for decades at...
     
  23. Khorn

    Khorn Dynagrunt Obversarian

    Right on, since getting my HDTV and seeing what it can do I am anxious to see will happen with this format thing. The difference in picture quality on a good HD broadcast or HD movie broadcast is in no way as subtle as the music thing. I do believe HDTV will catch on far far faster and in critical mass numbers way before any high resolution music format. Almost anyone can see a great difference on a reasonable size display. The one I have is 50" and everyone who has seen good HD programming on it has been very very impressed. This is gonna take off on a far greater level than any music format. Knowing HD DVD is coming soon has me putting DVD movie purchases mostly on "hold" at present.
     
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