Ella Fitzgerald Gershwin Song Book questions

I've got the Dennis Drake mastered 3 cd set on this and its pretty great and has suited me well these past 15 years or so.

I've learned a lot about this title doing some searches on this release here and in and the archives....

Seems there are at least 3 different cd masterings. the Drake, the Song Books box set and the latest 4 cd edition with a bunch of mono bonus tracks and some alternate takes. Is this all of them? Has anyone done a shootout? does anyone have either of the other 2 sets I dont have where we can post some samples and do our own shootout? Let me know if there is any interest.

I know many of the latter Verve issues are not well liked audiowise around here, but has anyone heard this 4 cd version? I'm mostly interested in the bonus material, but curious how it all sounds as its pricey for just a dozen or so bonus cuts. It does seem to be out of print as well, so another hunting project if it seems worthy of getting.

Also, regarding the mono vinyl. How do you know its a first issue? what do the covers look like? ive seen variations, covers with ella and i'm assuming Riddle on the covers and ones with the illustrations like the speakers corner issues.

Ideally wouldnt any fan like the original mono box with book in decent shape. what would that go for in todays collectors market? does anyone have a scan of what it would look like? I dont think i've ever seen one.

 

I have an original mono Verve 5LP + bonus EP and booklet box set. The box itself is a little dilapidated, visually the records are NM-, with only a few light scuffs. I got this at Amoeba Berkeley about a year ago for $20. Tim's '01 guide lists this as $125 VG+, $250 NM.

The box front has one of the Bernard Buffet drawings, the one of the lady's face from Vol 2. I believe the box originally contained nice prints of all five drawings, they did not come in mine. The LPs are simply in plastic sleeves. The "booklet" is a beautiful hard-bound 12 x 9 book with lots of nice vintage sepia toned photos.

I also have all five volumes in original Verve stereo individual LPs. These are gatefold covers with beautifully rendered Buffet drawings on the front. Mine are minty fresh. Can't remember right off what I paid, wasn't much. Less then $10 a pop from Princeton Record Exchange I'm sure. Book value, from the same book, is $50 each.

Original Verves have the "T" or David Stone Martin "trumpet player" labels, and only mention "Verve" on the label, no "MGM". Usually these are black, sometimes orange. Trumpets, and oranges, are generally earlier, but Verve was not at all consistent there. The sound on these is nice and silky smooth on Ella, orchestra slightly tinny, but still very nice. Dynamics galore. Original Verves are never very quiet vinyl, no matter the condition.

http://www.absolutemusik.com/info/jazz_verve_labels_en.html

There was also a single LP Gerswin Ella, first on Decca, then Verve that pre-dates the five volume set. The cover on this one is Ella in front of the NYC skyline at night.

Lastly you have the version of the original box set in a walnut box and leather album folders. I have never seen one of them myself. Book is $250 VG+, $500 NM.


No CDs of this title here, sorry. Maybe I'll pick one up if a forum favorite master emerges. It's certainly classic stuff.

 

thanks Dongel for the great information on the vinyl edition.

 

yes, but i'm patient, so I'll figure it all out in time.

 

Great thread Wilbur!

I have almost all of the Drake mastered Ella songbooks and I love them. Mono LPs could be fun to hunt down...

I shall check this thread once in a while to see what our experts have to add...

 

Steve, why are the first cuttings not the best?

 

well I'm particularly curious about the Gershwin song books myself.

 

This is the "booklet":





Again, a nicely printed, 12 x 9, 50 page, hardcover book. Mostly about the brothers and their music, not about these particular sessions.

 

Maybe Steve says these "bite", I'd say it's worth a fiver for the complete set of originals:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320095629661

 

OK, if this works (my first try) here is an Ella, Gershwin-related sound sample.
(type in the code at the bottom of the page that opens)
Tony

http://w12.easy-share.com/943666.html

 

I have a wacky Ella Gershwin mono LP set - not the original first issue box, a second pressing (without the deluxe packaging, though it's still in a nice box) - that I bought SEALED about a year ago - never played. Unfortunately, it's a real mish mash - the matrices suggest that a variety of generations of stampers were used, and the sound is about what you'd expect as a result - some sides sound fantastic, while others are incredibly muffled. I didn't pay much for this at all since it was such a popular collection and there's lots of copies, but that was a big bummer.

I hope over time to assemble an "all good" box by piecing it together from different copies.

 

Would that actually have been offered for sale sealed in the 1950s?

 

I guess I was under the impression that the closer you are to the master the better and that the first cuts on anything would be the sound we'd want.Is there something wrong with the way the first cuttings were mastered or is it for other reasons that the first cuttings arent the ones to have?

I am a fan of the Cole Porter , Duke and Irving Berlins myself. What's wrong with the first cuttings of those? Havent heard them so have no idea.

thanks Steve

 

Hi,

Note about the CD versions! There are no first generation tapes known to exist. There are second and sometimes third generation tapes at best in the Verve tape vaults. The mono original tapes are still extant. On CD, the original CD mastering by Dennis Drake is best. It's a flat transfer of the best Stereo tapes still available. The newer Verve Master Edition has some outtakes, the Ambulatory Suite and other preludes, and singles versions of some tunes. It is brighter than the Drake version and also has some Mono versions. A little treble cut and it's OK sounding to me but not up to the Drake. We really need a fresh Mono CD version with all the goodies. It would trounce the Stereo and come from true original master tapes.

 

No but then again it wasn't FROM the 1950s...as I mentioned, it was a reissue and I believe dates from the 1960s. I suppose at some point someone could have shrink wrapped it after the fact but it did indeed look brand new and all the records had matching label codes etc that were correct for the expected time period. It's just the stamper and matrix info scratched in the dead wax that varied...so unfortunately I don't think it's a case of being duped...wish it had been, actually, I could have returned it for refund!

 

BTW here's the issue of the mono box set I bought (not this exact copy). Verve Records 5 LP set, MONO: V-29-5 - Ella Fitzgerald Sings The George And Ira Gershwin Song Books (1961)



My copy had the shrink intact except some small holes, and also had an original price tag with some ridiculously low price for the box, suggesting again it was authentic - though again quite possible that it wasn't shrink wrapped by some retailer until later, it had obviously been sitting around for a long, long time.

 

just bumpin.

 

Not doubting you mind, just wondering. I was thinking maybe this being a special box set maybe 50's copies did come with some sort of wrap.

My box is a totally different look to yours, having one of the Buffet drawings on the front. I've seen some '80's French issue boxes with a different drawing on front, I'm not entirely sure if the originals weren't issued with different drawings? The back has the photo and text of yours, but in black & white and with a lot more smaller text. I'd scan mine, but the box is in poor shape, and is bigger then my scanner to boot.

I should also mention that anything with a Verve "MGV" (mono) or "MGVS" (stereo) prefix would be an earlier issue from when Verve was independent; 1956--1960. MGM issues from 1960 on have "V" (mono) or "VS" (stereo) prefixes. The first Gershwin box was released in 1959. So that's a pretty narrow window to find an original label.

 

I’ll take a crack at that, although I'm nowhere near as knowledgeable as Steve, obviously.

I don't think a later "cutting" is necessarily bad. You can only press so many albums from one lacquer, ie "cutting". They make a metal deal out of one, and then make the stampers from that. The more stampers you make, the more it wears. The more you stamp with them the more they wear. So you can only make so many actual albums from a given "cut". This does reduce the sound quality as they wear. It's not usually evident in the main matrix number how many generations of stampers you are away, sometimes that is shown with little hash marks elsewhere. Unless you've got an individually numbered limited edition I don't believe you ever know how worn a given stamper is?

As Steve notes, they made a lot of Ella records. That would mean cutting a lot of lacquers. Depending on the skill of the operator, and maybe just luck, one cut could be better then another. Provided the master tape hasn't worn significantly cut #1 could be better or worse then cut #50. You are no farther away from the tape. Steve didn't say the first cutting is always worse, just that it's not necessarily better.

I could envision a scenario that could make a first "cut" worse. Maybe they had a huge demand initially for the new Ella album, and rushed through making a bunch of lacquers for the initial run. Maybe later when all those stampers wore out they need a couple more laquers cut and the operators paid more attention. That is pure speculation tho.

Conventional audiophile collector wisdom says the original mastering engineer is usually involved in the cutting of the first batch. Whereas latter on (s)he will have moved on to other projects, and so the earliest pressing is usually the best, or closest to the artist's vision.

Maybe Steve knows something more about the specific situation at Verve cutting rooms in the '50s?

 

Are these all the "songbooks" to look for? And Steve, are you saying mono is the way to go on all of them?

 

I'm not Steve, but the Gershwin set is not on that list. With the Gershwin songbook those are all the ones she recorded for Verve. The Cole Porter songbook and the Duke Ellington set are mono only. Steve was saying that mono is the way to go on the other early ones. IMO, that would cover the first five (Porter, Rodgers & Hart, Ellington, Berlin, Gershwin). All are easily available in clean copies except for the Cole Porter songbook.

 

Another question....the OOP 5 LP set from Speakers Corner would not be ideal since they are stereo?

 

Does anyone know for sure if Drake Mastered the 1986 Verve CD of Berlin Songbook, Volume 1? Does not say on his site, but some forum members have said that he did in fact master Volume 1...

I have a sealed copy that I don't want to open unless I know it is Drake....