Elvis at the International Hotel Las Vegas 1969 Box Set

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by emjel, Apr 9, 2019.

  1. PacificOceanBlue

    PacificOceanBlue Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Southwest
    The only similar peculiarities are due to the tape source. Anesini’s mixes have a natural liveliness and a vintage ambiance. Ferrante’s work was mechanical and uneven. No need to try to disparage others as “internet experts” as if they have no ability to discern the quality of the work presented — many have closely evaluated and scrutinized the recordings to come up with their own conclusions about the engineering.

    At the very least, Anesini never removed the mid-show monologue to the end of the show for “playing convenience,” an alteration to ruined the Live In Las Vegas disc. Although to be fair, that was likely Ernst’s directive rather than Ferrante’s misguided decision.
     
  2. RoyalPineapple

    RoyalPineapple Forum Resident

    Location:
    England
    The piano is missing (or otherwise essentially submerged) from In Person disc 2 in much the same way as on Live In Las Vegas.

    In other words, not on every song, but on some of them. It's the same on the Ross-Spang mixes. Presumably it wasn't played, or more likely wasn't recorded, as Monk says in one of his more sensible posts above.

    This is where The Messiah comes in. There's nothing wrong with Vic's mixes, on the contrary they are excellent and definitive of the vintage style.

    But some people on this forum have such a reverence for him that they ignore flaws (missing instruments, imbalances, distortion) or absences in his mixes at the same time Ferrante is crucified for the very same things.
     
  3. Matthew

    Matthew Forum Resident

    Location:
    Jammin' at Sun
    Not to these ears. But a big difference is the sources have room to breath in the Anesini mix whereas they're really fighting each other on the Ferrante show in question. The muddy reverb slopping over the top of it along with the hard compression doesn't help. The piano doesn't really stand a chance.

    Sorry, I think this is a really poor analogy, especially since Anasini's and Ferrante's mixing work is miles apart in approach here. Anesini does have his detractors as well. And personally I don't think the work on FTD's On Stage is up to the same standard as releases like Hot August Night or The Wonder of You (though I cannot recall which stuff is Vic's and which stuff is Sebastian's on the On Stage release) - the reverb isn't quite right to me.

    Now, important point - it's not like Ferrante (or Anasini for that matter) ever set out to make a "bad" sounding record. No doubt to his ears at the time he was making a "good" sounding record, and clearly it has its fans (like your good-self). But over the years the prevailing opinion seems to be that Live In Las Vegas (Disc 1), along with 1999's expanded edition of On Stage represent his worst work on the Presley catalogue.

    But I'll always have the August 12th, 1970 MS!
     
  4. artfromtex

    artfromtex Honky Tonkin' Metal-Head

    Location:
    Fort Worth, TX
    Even if you prefer someone else's work, I cannot understand disparaging Vic Anesini with hyperbolic euphemisms. That man has done an outstanding job on Elvis' catalog as well as many others.

    On another note I would like to take a moment and reflect on how blessed we are as Elvis fans. Not only have all these magnificent performances been released, they have been released multiple times with the intent of true sonic upgrade. Whether or not you think they met their goal is up to you. But compared to fans of other artists, we have an embarrassment of riches.
     
    GillyT, Mr. H, laf848 and 7 others like this.
  5. PacificOceanBlue

    PacificOceanBlue Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Southwest
    When Sony assumed control of the Elvis catalogue circa 2006, it was an incredible development for Elvis enthusiasts. BMG was not known for prioritizing sound quality, and it also wasn’t Ernst’s strength, so once Sony took over management, there was access to skilled engineers and presumably superior facilities and budgets. Shortly thereafter, it was clear things were going in the right direction when it was announced that Anesini was remastering the catalogue.
     
  6. RoyalPineapple

    RoyalPineapple Forum Resident

    Location:
    England
    I think you are missing the point.

    People have disparaged Ferrante (who is now dead, incidentally) on this forum for years for taking it upon himself to eliminate the piano from the mix.

    However, no one notices when Vic's mixes also have a piano that is submerged. Or horns that are too loud/quiet. Or distortion on the background vocals (now mostly fixed on the Ross-Spang mixes).

    No one is disparaging Vic Anesini, only the hero-worshipping attitude.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  7. monkboughtlunch

    monkboughtlunch Forum Resident

    Location:
    Kansas City
    Great observations! Can you point out the specific releases and track times of these examples?
     
  8. PacificOceanBlue

    PacificOceanBlue Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Southwest
    Actually, it is noticed. Again, Anesini’s mixes have a natural liveliness and a vintage ambiance. Ferrante’s work did not, and was largely mechanical and uneven. There is a lot more to it than submerged piano.

    Ferrante’s back-to-back releases of Live In Las Vegas and At The International were maligned from the start, and frankly no one went in with an agenda to trash his work. There were no preconceived notions. In 2000, it was a first impression scenario, and coming off his 8/12/70 m.s. mix from TTWII-Special Edition, presumably fans expected an quality mix. It has a shock to many how substandard the results were with the 1969 recordings.

    On the flip-side, in 2008, Vic did not have a history with mixing live Presley tapes, and when fans heard the FTD reissue of In Person, they were impressed with the results and enthused that someone got it right. There was no agenda, no hero-worshiping, just the results.
     
  9. artfromtex

    artfromtex Honky Tonkin' Metal-Head

    Location:
    Fort Worth, TX
    Fair enough. I have not weighed in on the disappearing piano debate. I think that is baked into the tapes and not a decision by the engineers.

    Referring to Vic, sarcastically, as "The Messiah" is a bit much, but I understand your point. I think people are just appreciative of the work he has done for us. This music means a lot to all of us and it is nice to see it treated with the reverence and expertise it deserves.

    :cheers:
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  10. artfromtex

    artfromtex Honky Tonkin' Metal-Head

    Location:
    Fort Worth, TX
    For what it's worth, I think the remixes Ferrante made for the 70's box were vast improvements. Especially the "Good Times" tracks.
     
    laf848, SteveM, RSteven and 1 other person like this.
  11. RoyalPineapple

    RoyalPineapple Forum Resident

    Location:
    England
    No offence intended, to you or Vic: I was just winding up "The Meddling Monk" up-thread, who was pestering me with examples of bad mixing while I was trying to cook a stir-fry. :laugh:
     
    artfromtex and RSteven like this.
  12. RSteven

    RSteven Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brookings, Oregon
    I honestly have not seen or read any "hero-worshiping" of Mr. Anesini on this forum. What you do see is a great appreciation for the professional skills and talent that he has brought to the Elvis Presley catalogue that was not really a point of emphasis previously, until Vic came into the picture through Ernst Jorgensen's guidance as @PacificOceanBlue pointed out in his previous post. I think it was Ernst himself who said it is almost unfair to compare a new remastering of an album from some other time period as technology and skill sets can change dramatically over a few years. As someone once implied with regard to this same issue, maybe some fantastic technology will come along in ten years and some hot shot engineer with great ears and talent will be able to improve on Vic's remastering of the Elvis catalogue, but for right now Vic, and I think Sebastian Jeansson as well, have done a fantastic job with Elvis's iconic recordings. As a huge Frank Sinatra fan as well, I truly wish his fans had been blessed with the same level of consistency and attention to detail that Mr. Anesini has brought to the Elvis catalogue. No disrespect meant to Dennis Ferrante as I quite enjoyed some of his remastering on past Elvis projects like the 70's box set, Walk A Mile In My Shoes. It was quite decent for its time.
     
    chaz, Mr. H, laf848 and 2 others like this.
  13. Matthew

    Matthew Forum Resident

    Location:
    Jammin' at Sun
    They have? Sure you're not thinking of another forum?

    But, but, the piano's not submerged, and it's a bit of a stretch to declare hero-worship.

    Besides the counterpoint to discussing the merits of Dennis Ferrante's Elvis work is not pulling a whataboutery with Vic Anesini. Ferrante doesn't get elevated by pulling down Anesini, and vice versa. Their approach was/is miles apart.

    Probably time we all move on from this one, it feels beaten into the ground now.
     
  14. RoyalPineapple

    RoyalPineapple Forum Resident

    Location:
    England
    Yes it is, on some of the songs (and not on others). The fact that the new Live 1969 mixes also have variation in the audibility of the piano suggests the limitation is in how the original 8-track recordings were made.


    You can move on if you like, but don't try and tell me what to do.

    Yes, I am sure. No, I am not thinking of another forum.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  15. monkboughtlunch

    monkboughtlunch Forum Resident

    Location:
    Kansas City
    Ferrante’s mixes of the Feb. 1972 Vegas material on the 1995 Essential 70s Masters Box set were very good. He was capable of a good mix!

    That’s what is disappointing about his treatment of the 1969 shows.

    It is objectively and quantifiably verifiable that Ferrante’s mix of Aug. 23, 1969 midnight show runs 2% slower. There is a very loud static noise at 1:48 on Ferrante’s mix of Can’t Help Falling in Love (Aug 23 MS). (That noise is not on the Ross Spang mix). Plus, Burton’s guitar is way too low in the Ferrante mix on multiple songs on the Aug 23 MS— but the same guitar track is not snowed under on the Ross Spang mix.

    It has nothing to do with whether Ferrante has passed away or not.

    Good work is good work. Sloppy work is sloppy work. And those FTDs cost $30 a pop. Folks have every right to point out sloppy work.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  16. Matthew

    Matthew Forum Resident

    Location:
    Jammin' at Sun
    Merely a suggestion friend, go for gold!

    FECCs like you are, but okay. ;)

    Been on this forum for a looong time and cannot recall all the Ferrante Vegas '69 "disparaging" you make mention of. But what do I know, it's a big forum.
     
  17. When In Rome

    When In Rome It's far from being all over...

    Location:
    UK
    Apologies for an off topic moment:
    Do I sense a fellow 'Doctor Who' fan?
    Or am I barking up the wrong tree?
     
    mark winstanley likes this.
  18. monkboughtlunch

    monkboughtlunch Forum Resident

    Location:
    Kansas City
    Don’t like to be pestered with facts?
     
  19. RoyalPineapple

    RoyalPineapple Forum Resident

    Location:
    England
    I knew you'd say that, because I saw your "subtitle thing" under your name earlier today. :righton:

    *Don't like to be pestered by prats.

    ...keeping up with this one is hard enough without jumping in the deep end with the real loonies! :D
     
    BeatleJWOL likes this.
  20. When In Rome

    When In Rome It's far from being all over...

    Location:
    UK
    I'm sorry. Just like The Four Tops, 'I Can't Help Myself'... :rolleyes:
     
  21. ClausH

    ClausH Forum Resident

    Location:
    Denmark
    Anesini and Jeansson mastered the original album.
    Jeansson mastered the rest of disc 1
    Anesini mastered disc 2.

    The release contains no mixing credits.
     
    Matthew and RSteven like this.
  22. monkboughtlunch

    monkboughtlunch Forum Resident

    Location:
    Kansas City
    You don’t fit the definition of a prat?
    You are spot on about the horns and strings. On at least one show (maybe all), Pachuki recorded the horns and strings on different tracks. Did he put the strings on the same track as Wilkinson’s rhythm guitar?

    What shows can the Sweets and Imperials be heard mixed on opposite sides of the stereo image?

    On what songs does the electric keyboard mic activate and suggest it’s on a different track than piano (vs mic leakage from Larry’s keyboard speaker bleeding into Tutt’s drum mics — or a mixdown post production pan placement?)

    Why do you think there was a track for audience applause vs mic leakage? If so what track was it on?
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  23. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Pick up a fast car, burn my name in the road

    ahhhmmm . I am still waiting for my 69 set to swim from the UK... I came here to see what folks think of it and I seem to be reading about That's The Way It Is and In Person, and all this other stuff ....
    Am I missing something?
    Is it a disaster?
    What the hoohaa does this thing sound like. I don't care if Herman Munster mixed it if it sounds good.
    Is it just some minor mastering issues?
    Has it got grand cathedral reverb thrown all over it?
    Does Dolly Parton suddenly start singing Here You Come Again in the middle of a song?

    What's happening?:D
     
    GillyT, Mr. H and frightwigwam like this.
  24. Matthew

    Matthew Forum Resident

    Location:
    Jammin' at Sun
    I think all the audience is merely mic bleeds across the stage. In 1969 Jarvis was always going to sweeten the audience reactions as overdubs (whilst also covering edits between songs).
     
  25. RSteven

    RSteven Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brookings, Oregon
    Hey Mark, please read post #536 above where I talk about how great Disc 9 (August 25th MS) sound in comparison to Vic Anesini's very fine Hot August Night FTD from 2013. I have also run through most of the first recorded show as well on Disc 1 of the new box set. So far, I am really impressed with the mix and mastering by Matt and Vic.
     
    GillyT and mark winstanley like this.

Share This Page