Elvis Costello on Rhino--time to reevaluate?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by edb15, Oct 10, 2007.

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  1. Derek Gee

    Derek Gee Senior Member

    Location:
    Detroit
    I'll try. It sounds to me like there's no bass, no mid-range, and way too much in the highs. I have serious doubts that the master tape sounds anything like that.

    Derek
     
  2. Downsampled

    Downsampled Senior Member

    Heh. Well, thanks for the support. Not trying to start an argument, of course. I am interested in hearing everyone's thoughts, so if having the AIFs helps, that's great.

    (And uploading big files is easier when you do it from work! :) )
     
  3. Downsampled

    Downsampled Senior Member

    No bass and no midrange! :eek:
     
  4. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    Hey, is there anyone out there who has the Demon pressing of King of America and is willing to post the EAC log file? I'm curious whether the Demon actually features a completely different mastering than the F-Beat CD. I suspect they may just be the same mastering. Here's the log for the F-Beat:

    Track 1

    Filename C:\Music 1\01 Brilliant Mistake.wav

    Timing problem 0:00:17
    Timing problem 0:00:31

    Peak level 100.0 %
    Copy CRC 4D6FDFD7
    Copy finished

    Track 2

    Filename C:\Music 1\02 Lovable.wav

    Peak level 100.0 %
    Copy CRC FF7874AD
    Copy OK

    Track 3

    Filename C:\Music 1\03 Our Little Angel.wav

    Peak level 80.2 %
    Copy CRC A4C1FF18
    Copy OK

    Track 4

    Filename C:\Music 1\04 Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood.wav

    Peak level 91.7 %
    Copy CRC BAE7DEEE
    Copy OK

    Track 5

    Filename C:\Music 1\05 Glitter Gulch.wav

    Peak level 87.9 %
    Copy CRC EF665989
    Copy OK

    Track 6

    Filename C:\Music 1\06 Indoor Fireworks.wav

    Peak level 70.6 %
    Copy CRC 60B2C099
    Copy OK

    Track 7

    Filename C:\Music 1\07 Little Palaces.wav

    Peak level 67.4 %
    Copy CRC 65127BBB
    Copy OK

    Track 8

    Filename C:\Music 1\08 I'll Wear It Proudly.wav

    Peak level 83.6 %
    Copy CRC 9442829C
    Copy OK

    Track 9

    Filename C:\Music 1\09 American Without Tears.wav

    Peak level 80.9 %
    Copy CRC BFF76F67
    Copy OK

    Track 10

    Filename C:\Music 1\10 Eisenhower Blues.wav

    Peak level 92.8 %
    Copy CRC EC911AA1
    Copy OK

    Track 11

    Filename C:\Music 1\11 Poisoned Rose.wav

    Peak level 78.8 %
    Copy CRC 9C2F24BD
    Copy OK

    Track 12

    Filename C:\Music 1\12 The Big Light.wav

    Peak level 97.5 %
    Copy CRC D01A5473
    Copy OK

    Track 13

    Filename C:\Music 1\13 Jack Of All Parades.wav

    Peak level 100.0 %
    Copy CRC 2B0F0F8E
    Copy OK

    Track 14

    Filename C:\Music 1\14 Suit Of Lights.wav

    Peak level 100.0 %
    Copy CRC 907B7881
    Copy OK

    Track 15

    Filename C:\Music 1\15 Sleep Of The Just.wav

    Peak level 100.0 %
    Copy CRC 89BC3876
    Copy OK

    No errors occurred

    End of status report
     
  5. C6H12O6

    C6H12O6 Senior Member

    Location:
    My lab
    Check out What's So Funny About Peace, Love and Understanding. I think the Rhino CD used the best source because it sounds horrible on Ten Bloody Marys and Ryko's Armed Forces CD. The Rhino CD is twice as loud as the Ten Bloody Marys CD and is a little trebly. I think the loudness may mean its compressed but when you make the necessary volume adjustments and cut out 3db at 10k its still a lot better. The difference is humongous.
     
  6. Downsampled

    Downsampled Senior Member

    I'd love to help you out (because I have that disc), but I'm a Mac guy and can't run EAC. If anyone knows of a freeware/shareware app that will yield those data, please let me know!
     
  7. C6H12O6

    C6H12O6 Senior Member

    Location:
    My lab
    I compared those clips last night and compared them again with fresh ears this morning. The Rhino mastering is too aggressive for my tastes. The Demon mastering sounded all right until I compared it to the Ryko mastering. Either the Ryko CD bumped up the low end or Demon shaved it off. Is it possible the Demon CD used a LP master that shaved off the low end?

    btw, does anyone know about 'Living in Paradise' on This Years Model? Does the Rhino and Ryko CDs use different mixes? What does the Demon CD use?
     
  8. Downsampled

    Downsampled Senior Member

    Is this a known issue? Just wondering why you're asking.

    I'll try to sit down and check that out when I get a chance. Thanks for your observations on the clips.
     
  9. edb15

    edb15 Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    new york
    Just checking in on a thread I never expected to last so long. I had another go with MAIT tonight after I received a Stiff pressing (porky on both sides, dist. by Island). It was terrific--dynamic, with deep tight bass, sweet mids, and a bit dull though sweet on top, like I expect from pub rock. Then the Columbia (1D stamper) was also quite dynamic and sweet through the mids, with boosted treble that made cymbals and Elvis's voice grainy by comparison to the Stiff. Then to the Rhino. To its credit it was detailed in the mids and preserved some of the sweetness of the guitar and organ. But it lacked bass compared to both vinyl versions, and as I noted in the first post, had jacked treble--even beyond the Columbia. In addition to the enhanced grain on the top end of the voice, cymbals were now piercing noise instead of complex vibrating metal. The Ryko matched the tonal balance of the Stiff better, but sounded like a dub, by which I mean it sounded opaque and fuzzy all the way through. Despite the warmer balance, it was also harsher, due either to sources or converters, I would guess.

    I guess it's possible the Rhino, with it's trebly balance, represents what the tapes sound like but if so Peckham had a lot more taste in mastering this than the Rhino folks.
     
  10. C6H12O6

    C6H12O6 Senior Member

    Location:
    My lab
    It has to be. I compared the Rhino to the Ryko version last night. The channels are flipped around and Costello's vocal is dry as a bone. On the Ryko CD Costello's vocal has echo and sounds lower in the mix.

    If anyone has the Demon version of This Years Model, which Living in Paradise mix does it use? Ryko or Rhino?
     
  11. Downsampled

    Downsampled Senior Member

    I just took a quick listen to all three, and as far as the vocal goes, I can hear what you're talking about. Rhino is dry, Ryko has some echo.

    The Demon seems to be about as dry as the Rhino.
     
  12. DrJ

    DrJ Senior Member

    Location:
    Davis, CA, USA
    OK finally got my Japanese F-Beat KING OF AMERICA CD. Based on head to head listening comparisons with the German F-Beat version, and the Japanese F-Beat and German F-Beat CD sound like the same mastering, I'm very confident about this. I think my initial comments about the German F-Beat were a little too hasty...I was coming down with a head cold (I kid you not) when I wrote them, and now that I'm recovering and my ears are getting back to normal I don't find it harsh at all on the high end - nor is the Japanese F-Beat which again sounds identical to me. Both have nice bass and mids, and the highs are fine. All that they lack, next to the LP (IMHO) is that little extra bit of midrange warmth/magic, so I still prefer the LP but only by a small margin, based on personal preference.

    Now I need to one last time compare the F-Beats to the KOA tracks on the Demon comp GIRLS GIRLS GIRLS (as I don't have the Demon KOA). On prior comparison, the German F-Beat sounded a lot different than the KOA tracks on GIRLS GIRLS GIRLS, but I want to make extra sure it wasn't a bad day/head cold/psychoacoustics.
     
  13. DrJ

    DrJ Senior Member

    Location:
    Davis, CA, USA
    And so to complete the thought: A/B'd the KING OF AMERICA tracks on the Demon GIRLS GIRLS GIRLS CD with those on the Japanese F-Beat CD (which I find to be indentical sounding to the German F-Beat):

    No question the Demon and F-Beat are different masterings. The tracks on the Demon CD sound better than I remembered - it seems quite clear they are EQ'd around Elvis' voice - very warm, rich midrange, but the high end and low end are not nearly as extended as on the F-Beats, which also have great midrange, but they really dig deep (the bass in the intro of "Poisoned Rose" is unbelievable) and you can hear cymbal and other detail more naturally - stuff like that sounds buried on the Demon CD.

    Neither sounds compressed, or like reverb was added, etc. Rather there are some subtle EQ differences, and/or maybe it's possible one used a different tape source than the other. In fact they sound similar enough that I lean toward the latter.

    So anyway, I don't know which of the 2 CDs is "truer" to the sound of the original master tapes, but they do sound different. Both sound good, but so far I find myself preferring the F-Beat mastering. Despite having "more" high end than the Demon versions, the F-Beats are far from bright - rather the music breathes and sounds a little less boxed in, more natural, than on the Demon CD. And from memory the F-Beats sound more like my vinyl copy which also has extended high and low end.

    To settle that last issue though, I am soon going to make a CD-R of the U.S. vinyl version of KOA and throw that into the mix. Will report back soon.
     
  14. onlyconnect

    onlyconnect The prose and the passion

    Location:
    Winchester, UK
    Girls Girls Girls is still widely available (UK Demon). Is this the same mastering, or was the mastering changed at some point?

    Tim
     
  15. Downsampled

    Downsampled Senior Member

    Thanks a lot for writing all that up! Very interesting. I guess I'll have to keep an eye peeled for the F-Beats now. (Wow, another copy of KoA for me! :sigh: ) If I get some time in the near future I'll compare the Demon album tracks to Girls, just to see if there are any noticeable differences.
     
  16. Other than KoA, do you know which other Costello CD releases were on the F-Beat label?

    -s1m0n-
     
  17. DrJ

    DrJ Senior Member

    Location:
    Davis, CA, USA
    I know PUNCH THE CLOCK was issued on F-Beat, because I also have that one, a German pressing, and it doesn't sound all that great. I haven't compared it directly to my old vinyl copy, which I remember didn't sound all that great either - but then again I despise the production on that record (almost kills some very good songs). And I also haven't yet had time to compare it to the PUNCH THE CLOCK tracks on GIRLS GIRLS GIRLS.

    Not sure if any other E.C. CDs appeared on F-Beat - but I'm thinking that's it.
     
  18. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    According to this discography, Goodbye Cruel World also has an F-Beat CD mastering.
     
  19. DrJ

    DrJ Senior Member

    Location:
    Davis, CA, USA
    Yes you're right, GOODBYE CRUEL WORLD also was a CD on F-Beat...it's such a crappy album though (IMHO) I always forget about it. :)

    Listen folks, I have been listening more to the F-Beat and Demon KOA stuff and I have to say they are REALLY, really close - I'm actually starting to doubt myself that they are truly different, in fact. One issue of course is ensuring adequate volume matching. When I do that, they sound so similar to me I'm not consistently able to identify which is which, so I am now wondering if maybe I have been fooled (wouldn't be the first time) by slight volume differences.

    I don't have the time or know-how to do digital comparisions...but, if I get a few minutes this weekend I could rip a couple tracks from each and would be happy to perhaps e-mail them to someone who can do such comparisons (czeskleba?) and post them.

    Anyway, just wanted to make sure to post that I am no longer certain that the Demon and F-Beat KING OF AMERICA stuff actually differ - if they do it's very subtle and IMHO you would do fine with either. I wouldn't yet waste your time trying to find the hard-to-find F-Beats until we can get a little more objective info to throw into the mix. :wave:
     
  20. Thanks a ton DrJ. I have been familiar with Costello's stuff for many years (have a friend who's a huge fan) and only recently got into it. Got a couple Demon CDs not long ago and they do sound sweet! Pls keep us posted :)

    -s1m0n-
     
  21. mrbillswildride

    mrbillswildride Internet Asylum Escapee 2010, 2012, 2014

    My Aim Is True (Deluxe Edition)

    Hello,

    I have really enjoyed reading this whole thread, so much valuable info on Elvis Cds. I came to him late in the game, with Mighty Like A Rose, which I love, saw that tour in SB. Also love Spike, King of America and My Aim Is True, (my top three EC songs: Watching the Detectives, New Amsterdam, and Deep Dark Truthful Mirror.) I didn't start buying his older albums (except maybe three on Ryko) until this Rhino reissue series, and I love this series, mostly for all the bonus tracks, and because the Cds sound great to me, (though My Aim Is True on Rhino CD is no match for my Stiff "Porky" UK Lp, and Rhino's Spike can't touch my Robert Ludwig Spike on Warner Bros...)

    This tread has been invaluable in helping me understand the whole: Demon, F-Beat, Columbia, Ryko, Rhino, Hip-O saga... Here is my question: I just picked up a used copy of the new MAIT deluxe edition (only 12,99!) and I am wonder how it compares to the others (is this Hip-O the same as a Rhino~Africa Rules!), and what are thoughts on the bonus material on there?

    Also, Steve said "Demons rule..." does that apply to Bert Jansch Demons as well? I have TDEMCD 16 AND TDEMCD 17 of Bert's but was gonna trade them in because I have the new Sactuary pressings of his early works and I though these redundant, but now I wonder? Any thought?


    Any other great artists/albums on Demon worth lookng for?
     
  22. Downsampled

    Downsampled Senior Member

    I haven't had this too long so I can't say anything about the bonus material, but I am under the impression that the latest deluxe edition's mastering is identical to the Rhino. (I got that from a different thread here, so if that's not correct, someone please correct me!)
     
  23. mrbillswildride

    mrbillswildride Internet Asylum Escapee 2010, 2012, 2014

    Thanks plus minus,

    I got that impression too~ this thread or another... and as the bonus material is totally different to the Rhino disc two stuff, i guess there is no comparision? I think I won't need another MAIT for a LONG while...

    Great album thou!
     
  24. I have all of the Rhinos except King of America and Goodbye Cruel World, they all sound really good to my ears. The only Demon records CDs which I have also owned but later sold were Imperial Bedroom and Punch the clock. The Rhinos were an improvement over these two Demon CDs, to my ears. Clearer sound, more dynamic.
     
  25. jstraw

    jstraw Forum Resident

    I'm now collecting the Rhinos AND planning to buy the Hip-O's. With the exception of Get Happy the Rhinos can be had cheap.
     
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