Empire Strikes Back is visually beautiful

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by matthew5, Feb 28, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Hawklord

    Hawklord Senior Member

    My favourite. I only ever watch A new Hope and Empire as sit down movies, the others I'll catch 6 min here or there as they play on TV.
     
  2. Luke The Drifter

    Luke The Drifter Forum Resident

    Location:
    United States
    We are in an age where we like our movies dark in tone. That was never what Lucas wanted. Empire came out that way, because it was the middle act of the drama (which is always the most interesting). Jedi was meant to be "feel-good", and it delivers in a big way. It ties up all the loose ends. Return of the Jedi is not "Phantom Mentace" (not that you were saying it was). It is a great finish to the greatest trilogy ever made.

    Some of us may wish for darkness (Han dies, Wookies instead of Ewoks), but the film stands up well, and I think the cinematography fits the theme.
     
    Bowie Fett and ribors like this.
  3. The Hermit

    The Hermit Wavin' that magick glowstick since 1976

    It was actually just over $250, 000 once they added up all the cumulative penalities the DGA aimed at them... unions!!!

    Jedi looks fine in it's place for the most part, the darker interior scenes generally look nicer than the brighter exterior ones, I personally dislike the film stock used by Marquand and DP Alan Hume, they used a stock that looked softer onscreen and less sharp and well-defined than the glorious 5247 stock used on both Star Wars and Empire. Marquand's direction is deliberately minimalist in that it doesn't call attention to itself, which is again fine, he tended to use edits as little as possible and let the action play out in a single shot for as long as necessary before cutting to the next shot... I loved the kinetic editing of Star Wars, but that wasn't Marquand's style so we got what we got, for better or worse.

    The whole urban myth that Lucas 'ghost directed' Jedi is another half-truth that's been taken as fact over the years; the truth is Lucas gave Marquand enormous leeway to make the film he wanted, but obviously it was Lucas' world they were operating in, his story they were telling, and on his dime they were telling it on, so when certain creative decisions had to be made, it's no surprise who got the last say. Lucas ended up being on-set more than he expected because Marquand had almost no experience with special effects beforehand, so there was that, but no credible account that I've seen, read, or heard about has said that Lucas directed first-unit stuff whilst Marquand stood like a meat puppet in the background, that simply didn't happen. The vast majority of the film-as-shot is Marquand (second-unit and visual effects-based footage notwithstanding) and you can tell, the final edit is Lucas pretty much all the way... and you can certainly tell that!

    I like Jedi a great deal, flaws and all, it has some of the best moments and some of the worst moments of the trilogy, but it's an emotional and rousing finale that works every time... if only Lucas had stopped there...
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2015
    Luke The Drifter and Solaris like this.
  4. Solaris

    Solaris a bullet in flight

    Location:
    New Orleans, LA
    It's funny, I've always thought Jedi looked sharper and cleaner than either Star Wars or Empire. Particularly in the case of Star Wars, Gilbert Taylor did the mid-to-late 70s thing of using a diffused or soft focus filter on many of the shots. I still love how that movie looks, even if Empire is the better looking film because of all the points we've discussed in this thread. I'm just not a fan of the overall look of Jedi. Can't put my finger on why, exactly.
     
    eeglug and The Hermit like this.
  5. Grunge Master

    Grunge Master 8 Bit Enthusiast

    Location:
    Michigan
    For years, I always thought that Luke and Vader's battle in Jedi wasn't very good; recently, I've done a complete reversal on that. It's pretty damn good, and has some nice tension to it, also. It's exciting to see that Vader finally gets overmatched by Luke, to the point where he's just trying to do whatever he can to not get completely destroyed by Luke's anger.
     
    Luke The Drifter likes this.
  6. The Hermit

    The Hermit Wavin' that magick glowstick since 1976

    You and I are in complete agreement; Star Wars has a soft-focus throughout but still looks fantastic, Empire is an altogether sharper and more sophisticated look, but Jedi just looks... a little drabber, and I'm not entirely sure why either, I don't think the actual lighting has anything to do with that, when the trilogy was released on Blu-ray some years back - which I refuse to buy, I'm holding out for the theatrical versions still - a lot of reviews actually commented that Jedi looked noticeably softer in some scenes than it's two predecessors... leading me to think the problem was inherent in the film stock used to shoot most of that film, not that it was somehow not up to snuff or bad stock they got, it clearly was expensive and top-notch material used for high-end film production, just that it lacked the overall aesthetic beauty and more highly-defined texture of 5247 (Richard Donner's Superman: The Movie is proof of that also, shot on 5247 in a much more rushed production than Jedi's was, looks spectacular, and that had a heavy soft-focus throughout too).

    Still, it looks better than the horrendous prequels' aesthetic... at least Jedi looked like it happened in a real, tactile, tangible universe, something the makers of the upcoming new trilogy seem to get and understand.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2015
    Solaris likes this.
  7. mbrennem

    mbrennem Active Member

    I have the first coffee-table book about the history of ILM plus the Making of books by Rinzler and there are a lot of good SW matte paintings in those. Of course a dedicated book would be great though!
     
    DeeThomaz likes this.
  8. Solaris

    Solaris a bullet in flight

    Location:
    New Orleans, LA
    Isn't it the DP who usually picks the film stock? And how odd that whoever did so chose another stock when 5247 was readily available until the early 90s, if the internet is right.

    @Vidiot, any insights here?
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2015
    The Hermit likes this.
  9. The Hermit

    The Hermit Wavin' that magick glowstick since 1976

    Jedi was shot on 5293, which was a stock that had been praised by cinematographers and considered better than many of it's rivals at the time, like 5247, it went on to be widely used by many of the biggest names and films in the industry - The Lord of the Rings trilogy was shot on 5293 - it was clearly a stock held in very high regard, both aesthetically and technically. So obviously Richard Marquand, Alan Hume, and George Lucas liked it enough to use it for Jedi, but as good as it is, it just lacks the overall beauty and defined texture of the 5247... at least to me anyway.

    As I said before, there's nothing inherently wrong with Jedi, either how it looks or how it plays, and I know it's the director's prerogative over what look to go for, but as you yourself said, there's just something you can't quite put your finger on with regards the look of that film you don't like... ditto.
     
  10. nojmplease

    nojmplease Host, You Can't Unhear This

    Location:
    New York, NY
    I've always felt Jedi has the look of a film shot in the 70s/80s, whereas Empire looks like it could have been made last week. For whatever it's worth.
     
    mark renard likes this.
  11. DLeet

    DLeet Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chernigov, Ukraine
    I don't know, it hasn't aged too well for my taste. I've recently rewatched it with the 2011 facelifts. Yes, they have done a good job, but having viewed on YouTube how it was before and after.... I struggle to understand why the fans want originals that look so much more inferior in every possible way.

    Anyways, after watching Kubrick's Odyssey, my respect for the Star Wars films has severely diminished. Now I only perceive it as a fairy-tale for children - a view that opposes my perception as a child.
     
  12. Deesky

    Deesky Forum Resident

    If they'd just suck to cleaning up the originals (matte lines, color correction, etc), I don't think anyone would object. What everyone objects to is the asinine inclusions, like stuffing digital slapstick aliens or animals in every frame or altering character moments through edits and dubs.
     
  13. DLeet

    DLeet Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chernigov, Ukraine
    I don't know. Inserting digital animals, addin different scenery in the windows of Cloud City, including the shot of the city when Lando makes the order to evacuate - all of this creates a FAR better immersion in to the world of the film. I think Lucas has done a great job by trying to make the original trilogy as visually impressive as the prequels. And the 2011 editions have better sound design too... in my opinion of course.
     
  14. marblesmike

    marblesmike Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Are you secretly George Lucas?
     
  15. DLeet

    DLeet Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chernigov, Ukraine
    no. I am just in a minority that thinks - Lucas and whoever else responsible did a mighty fine job trying to make all episodes look like the whole. I also have to say (but at this point you will definitely believe that I am him, heh) that I do not get all the hate for Jar Jar. Seems like people lost a sense of humor. Yet I like the lighter side of Star Wars, the one which is fun and not filled with pathos to no end. SW does not pull pathos well due to performing the entertainment function in the first place. But when it's fun and flashy adventures in space and different planets - I'm in.

    P. S. It seems that people not happy with "remixed" version of original trilogy and prequels just take the series too seriously. If CGI technologies allows adding some stormtroopers on beasts in the desert - why not. Why just show a meager tiny group standing on their feet. That doesn't make sense either... as shown on this screenshot[​IMG]
    yes, more appear, but the one far ahead is immobile, and they just do not appear powerful and that mobile.

    I guess it's not about me "being George Lucas" (gasp!) but about the fact that my first episode was one. Then I watched four, five, by which I was underwhelmed. Then six - my second favorite to date. And then two and three as they were released in cinemas.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2015
  16. Deesky

    Deesky Forum Resident

    Okay, now you're just trolling!
     
  17. DLeet

    DLeet Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chernigov, Ukraine
    swear to God, man. My girlfriend who has NEVER seen the series in any way... we watched them together a coupla weeks ago. She adored him as well. What can I say. Different mentalities between rather different nations? I don't know. It would be interesting to see whether some nations prefer Jar Jar contrary to the Americans. It's only on this board that I have found out about nationwide American hate for Jar Jar.

    P. S. Maybe it's like Ukrainians having a hard time understanding British humor... who knows.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2015
  18. gabacabriel

    gabacabriel Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bristol, UK
    For me, the problem with the look of Jedi comes, not from the chosen film stock, but from the final third of the movie set on Endor. It simply doesn't look very alien - rather, it looks like it was shot in a forest somewhere in North America (which of course...)

    That said, and despite its many flaws, Jedi still handsomely trounces all of the prequel films.
     
    marblesmike likes this.
  19. marblesmike

    marblesmike Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    I think Jedi was only slightly better than Sith. Isn't it sad that it took a decent fanedit of Episode III for me to enjoy the most out of it? The first two episodes are lost.

    V
    IV
    VI
    III
    .
    .
    .
    II
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    I
     
  20. Luke The Drifter

    Luke The Drifter Forum Resident

    Location:
    United States
    What is the fan edit of which you speak?
     
  21. marblesmike

    marblesmike Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    fanedit.org

    There are several. I can't remember which I watched.
     
    Luke The Drifter likes this.
  22. nojmplease

    nojmplease Host, You Can't Unhear This

    Location:
    New York, NY
    Yep, that's the problem right there. If you haven't watched the Red Letter Media reviews of the prequels, then I'd recommend them (all on YouTube). That should help "fix" your impressions of the franchise as a whole. ;)
     
  23. Encuentro

    Encuentro Forum Resident

    That's pretty much how I feel about. I watched the Harmy reconstruction of Jedi recently, and yeah, it really isn't that much better than Sith. I think it's even debatable as to which of the two is better. Neither or horrible, but neither or great. Jedi will always have the advantage of being part of the original trilogy while Sith will always have the disadvantage of being part of the prequel trilogy. The films in their respective trilogies tend to get lumped together and not as much time is spent assessing the films on their own. My own list would have Phantom Menace ahead of Clones as Phantom Menace had a pretty decent lightsaber battle and a bad-ass villain with some potential to grow before he was, unfortunately, cut down. Aside from fanedit.org, there are a bunch of fanedits of the prequels on Youtube. So many that I wouldn't know which to choose should I be so inclined to watch one of them. Here are just 2 of them among many.

    All 3 prequels edited together into one films.


    Revenge of the Sith fan edit.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYLw6JDX2to
     
    Luke The Drifter likes this.
  24. DLeet

    DLeet Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chernigov, Ukraine
    okay, I will take a look!
     
  25. Deesky

    Deesky Forum Resident

    My list is as follows:

    IV
    V

    that's it.
     
    Solaris likes this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

molar-endocrine