Enzyme Cleaners specifically for LPs...Really?

Out of curiosity, I am in the process of "switching camps" so to speak concerning record cleaning fluids. I called and talked to Duane the "Disc Doctor", and he was very informative/helpful. I have always wanted to try his Miracle Cleaning Fluid, so I just placed an order for two of his brushes and a quart of the Miracle Fluid. He recommends using distilled water for rinsing. During our conversation, he said using ultrapure water is great, but there is really no need to use anything other than simple distilled water. I will probably do two rinses per side, using a different vacuum wand for the final rinse. Looking forward to trying the Disc Doctor products.

 

Duane is very knowledgeable but I find that Disc Doctor does not work as well as the MFSL or Audio Intelligent solutions. Your mileage may vary.

 

I was reading about the Aivs products, and from what I gather, you're supposed to keep the enzyme moving around with light scrubbing.

 

I use AIVS. I get enough on the record to have a good covering pool. I agitate the liquid for about 20 seconds as the cleaner spins, then I let it sit for 2 mins. Then I agitate again for about two revolutions before running the vacuum. This is how I do each step and it works quite well for me. I use the goats hait brush that came with my Okki Nokki. Actually, I have two...one for solution steps, and the other for the pure water step.

 

I haven't tried Audio Intelligent but agree with you on the MFSL. After doing some comparisons I gave my Disc Doctor fluid to a friend that is just getting started with vinyl. I suspect that Disc Doctor fluid would probably benefit greatly from a second water rinse. Most of the records I buy are new or in very good shape but I've been giving serious thought to buying #15 to use as a presoak for very dirty records or ones that look good but play bad.

 

This.

 

I'm just curious 5-String: what leads you to say that? Do you have any experience using high purity water with record cleaning vs. storebought distilled or Aquafina?

 

I've cleaned around 20 records using the lab grade water blakep provided in his link and I think it did make a difference with some of my noisier vinyl that was in physically excellent condition. I was using Wal-Mart brand deionized water before. I used my Stax headphones for listening more than the speakers as they are brutal on picking up surface noise.

I also borrowed a bit of the first 2 steps of AIVS from a friend (enzyme and the 2nd one with isopropyl alcohol) and I couldn't hear any difference between AIVS steps and VinylZyme, DiscDoctor Miracle diluted, followed by 2x lab grade rinse. I suspect with the VinylZyme and DD Miracle the cleaning is similar and by the time the lab grade water is introduced the whole process should get those grooves pretty damn clean using either method. The AIVS definitely was not any noisier and neither had any residual sonic signature.

I use a Loricraft PRC-4 for vacuuming. I do think with the DiscDoctor best results are achieved with 2 water rinses.

 

IMO double rinsing with high quality water is imperative to achieve really good results.

With some of those particularly noisy records that you've just cleaned, play them 2 or 3 times over a period of time, maybe a week. Then go back and simply do 2 rinses with the lab grade water (no first stage surfactant or enzyme based cleaner) and then play again.

I've had very good results doing this with many records that still seemed slightly noisy after a very thorough cleaning. Better than actually doing a full second cleaning using an enzyme or surfactant based cleaner in the second cleaning and then rinsing again. It is essentially the way I deal with noisier pressings now.

 

Why do you think the 2nd and 3rd rinses are better than a second cleaning?

 

back to the OP...
has anyone tried any readily available, off-the shelf non-vinyl-specific enzyme cleaners on their records? My local grocer has some organic type of enzyme cleaner, it's certainly much cheaper than the kinds made for vinyl lovers.

 

I tried more rinses, but didn't notice any effect, But then, my rinse is to spray on distilled water, brush, and spray again before shaking and drying. You might count that as two rinses anyway. The brushing with clean water is an essential step.

There sure are occasions when a second cleaning with the detergent brings more improvement.

 

Actually the 3rd and 4th rinses, and they are in essence a 2nd cleaning.

Because with a very high purity water (and the purity level is the key-I'm not talking about store bought distilled or Aquafina), the water itself is a very aggressive solvent and cleaner. To some extent there's only so much an enzyme or surfactant based cleaner can do and then you're spending time getting that, as well as other artifacts off the record.

The water in the 2nd cleaning, or 3rd and 4th rinses, can then tend to focus on really cleaning as opposed to rinsing surfactants off that you've just reapplied.

I will steam records during cleaning cycles as well (after rinsing), also with ultrapure water, and this may have something to do with it as well.

You also need a bit of water on the record when you're doing this. It doesn't have to be flying everywhere, but it needs to be pooling in front of the brush when you're applying it. I use an older table and apply any fluids at 45 RPM. Not that there's any real importance to the RPMs but I think it's important that any fluid is agitated with a decent brush (I use carbon fibre brushes for wet cleaning) to get the fluid down into the groove, as opposed to just plopping it on and letting it sit there.

In any event, I've had very good results doing this with many records, not only with respect to the record being "quieter" but also in terms of sonics and actual sound quality.

 

To update, I just received a bottle of AI Enzymatic Formula and my wife is bringing a few varieties of enzymatic cleaners that are used by the Surgical Sterilization dept. at the hospital along with my usual allotment of sterile water used for irrigation during surgeries. I will try the various cleaners and see which clean well. I've also looked into enzyme powders that can be mixed with to various strengths but have yet to find one with potential for vinyl use.

The grocery/hardware store cleaners are a bit of a bust for me since I determined that they aren't very pure and while they do a good job on organic material, they tend to leave a residue, potentially doing more harm than good in the end.

With the AI solution, I will have a baseline which to compare the other candidates and I am still hopeful that I can find a cheap homebrew solution. Thanks for all the good discussion and advice so far - keep at it.

 

Though I haven't tried 'Aquafina' and its ilk, I have used various types of distilled and sterile water. So far, the best results have come from using surgical irrigation water as its a sterile, ultrapure water that leaves no residue behind.

 

I agree. Ultrapure is "the bomb". A very aggressive solvent and cleaning agent on its own and, as you point out, no residue. That is the key. I've been using it for about 5 years as my wife is a researcher and simply brings it home from the lab.

In my experience of course. YMMV

 

I'm mainly an AI user myself and have used their enzyme solution.

In a discussion with some other needledroppers a while back I learned about an enzyme cleaner called Sporicidin. It's not something that you'll find on the grocer's shelf but it's not difficult to order on-line:

http://shop.americanairandwater.com...B3B1ED7.qscstrfrnt04?productId=9&categoryId=2

A 1-quart concentrate solution runs $34.15 (plus shipping) and makes 16 gallons. I use distilled water to bring it to working strength. (1/2 oz Sporicidin concentrate to 32oz water.)

The 1-quart working-strength enzyme cleaner from AI runs $37 (plus shipping).

I've been using this instead of the AI solution for a couple years now.

-DLedin

 

Lucky you!

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=229114&highlight=

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=228296&highlight=

 

Not really. No luck involved. Just thought the info might be useful in this thread.

-DLedin

 

I have the Mofi Enzyme cleaner and do I need a vacuum, in order to do the cleaning process? I tried without and it worked well on one record and on the other record it left visible residue where the tracks begin.

 

I agree. I have used Nitty Gritty, Disc Doctor, Audio Intelligent and the RRL/MFSL is still the most sonically neutral. It is difficult to remove Disc Doctor residue with just distilled water. You can see it in the run-out groove. RRL removes that easily. If I had to put things in a nutshell - Nitty Gritty gives a different bass presentation, Disc Doctor increases surface noise, Audio Intelligent is bright sounding (to me, unpleasant) and RRL is just right. I once bought an LP that was cleaned with the Walker stuff and it was pretty impressive also. My two cents worth.

 

I just cleaned a record with my Gem Dandy using a special filter but did not rinse and let air dry. I had no rinse made or bought and no vac here. Record sounds noisier than I remember even though "clean".

I want to test next rinsing with distilled water or better, and maybe building a DIY vac to suck it dry. I owned a modded small shop vac in the past that did the trick, but wondering what George at Gem Analog recommends and he thinks vacs can damage LPs.....

Jim at Osage pointed me to one of the AI all-in-one you can buy which is a concentrate. Anyone tried that one? It's a new one IIRC.

 

Any thoughts if this is good enough to use as a rinse?

 

Couple of points I'd like to make, based solely on my own experience. I ran with Bugtussel/Vinylzyme for about a year and found these results:
1/ It does work but you have to use a lot of liquid if you want it to stay on the surface for 2 minutes. Otherwise, it just wants to evaporate. Usually in 30 to 60 seconds.
2/ It really needs to stay on for a couple of minutes.
3/ Made the mistake of filling the reservoir of my NG1.5fi RCM with Vinylzyme and it actually attacked the adhesive on the vac sweep scrubbers, causing them to shift and me to replace them but I see this more as a testament to the efficacy of the product.

 

Lab quality water, flow agents and other parts of the puzzle cost money, along with the package. Every business has high and low margin items. It makes sense to me.