Enzyme Cleaners specifically for LPs...Really?

Hmmm, most interesting...

I've been using AI stuff for a while now, mainly #15 for tough jobs and #6 for lighter ones. BUT... with all this Hoo Haa about the water, honestly, I just figured that it doesn't cost THAT much and I ordered 2 1/2 gallons of Laboratory Grade purified water for about $27 shipped. Guys... 2 1/2 gallons will last quite a while And, to me as the last rinse step (if you are not just going with the #6) is indeed pretty important, and for that very reasonable price why the hell screw around...

HOWEVER....

In reading at Tom Ports site (which requires at least 2 Valium just to get started...) I found out about Walker's Prelude stuff. I'm in the process of trying to read EVERY review (where they DON'T sell it) that I can find, and what I'm reading so far pretty consistently seems to show that no matter WHAT the condition of the album, pristine or grungy, the Walker stuff appears to 'outshine' everything else and even improve the openness and clarity of the sonics, and even supposedly in some cases extend the bass response on even brand new or pre-cleaned albums. Very impressive SOUNDING so far... (Of course, that is what THEY claim too, so...)

One good thing is that since I already buy the LGPW I certainly do NOT need to pay the highly inflated prices for Walker's 'Purified Water' So, that cuts out a lot of the cost. Also, Tom Port does not use the 4th 'final rinse' in his process, so I'm thinking that the final with LGPW if done thoroughly should be fine. So, that leaves just the enzyme powder and the 2nd step premixed cleaner which isn't prohibitive. So, I'm gonna do a LOT more reading of reviews and see, but I think it may be worth the price of just the 2 steps (about $50) to give it a try, because so far the claims are pretty strong.

If anyone else here has any experience or input or thoughts (or shaved cats for that matter... Oh, uh.. (cough...) ahem, sorry, wrong forum... ) please by all means let me know what you think!

Thanks!

***EDIT

Oh, BTW, the only piece I'm missing (... and, who DOESN'T want a li'l piece, know what I mean? SAY NO MORE, SAY NO MORE...!! [Geez, I REALLY do need to get a life... ]) anyway, the only piece I am missing is the scoop size (NOT the cup size! [GEEZ, STOP IT! ]) that is used with the enzyme cleaner AND to how much water, so that I know how to mix for the cleaning (their full setup comes with pre-measured scoops and a place on the 4 oz bottle to fill to) So, if anyone DOES know that, that would be very helpful, thanks!

 

@latheofheaven - let me help you. I used to use Walker's fluids- first three steps, then four. AIVS No. 15, followed by a high purity water rinse will do just as good a job, the enzyme is not powdered, and doesn't require mixing (as the Walker does), it is already in the same bottle as the detergent/surfactant. It is not only cheaper, but far less time consuming, and there is nothing that prevents you from using it for a long soak.
If you have the ability to ship to a non-residential location, you can buy reagent grade 1 water in bulk from a lab supply house: 5 gallons for about the cost of 2 audiophile quarts.
PS: I like Walker's directional applicators though, and still use them, buy a pack of refill pads to keep them fresh.

 

Yes, but... how do I know that you really know what you are talking about...?

Sorry, couldn't resist after that MIND-BLOWING picture!



Wow, that is awesome, man, that you took the time to help, thank you!!!

Well, I guess THAT simplifies it... It's nice to know how at least SOME of this esoteric stuff can actually be simple! So, the AIVS No. 15 is sufficient then in and of itself. No need for the 2nd Walker step, the one that DOES have some alcohol in it?

And, yes, I go the 1/2 route with the water. I do get the 2.5 gallons of LGPW for about $27, from Amazon Prime no less, and that will last me a while.

BTW, how important do you think it is to use DIFFERENT applicator brushes for the #15, #6, or the LGPW...? I just use a Nitty Gritty brush that I bought when I built my RCM because it was what I was used to using when my friend had his NG in our listening room. I like it, but I was wondering if I need a 2nd brush. Then I thought, well, if I use the #15 and I need to rinse afterward anyway, wouldn't that pretty much rinse the brush enough for next time, say, if I wanted just to use the #6 the next time? OR... could I simply give the brush a good spray of LGPW after using the #15 just to be sure and then kind of squeeze out the excess water with a micro-fiber towel? How critical do you think it is to have separate brushes?

So, you're saying that all these 'claims' about 'better sonics' after using the Walker stuff is either not true or that you get the exact same results or at least similar with the #15? Why all the 'praise' then I wonder...?

Sure appreciate the most excellent help and insight!

Thank you Bro!

 

I use different applicators for different fluids. For the AIVS, I prefer a pad to a brush. The issue is also machine related- a VPI type machine turns slow; the Monks spins very fast and an applicator like the Disc Doctor/MoFi may not only stick to the record but pull it off the platter.
Everybody has their own technique. I pre-wet the pad (a Walker in the case of the AIVS No. 15 because its directional threads seem to do a better job of cleaning) with the fluid, put more fluid on as the record is spinning just to get it evenly dispersed. Then I shut off the machine motor, manually agitate, let sit, add a little more fluid, agitate, let sit, etc. Vacuum off, then apply the lab water (note there are different grades, do you know what grade lab water you are buying from Amazon?) and vacuum.
I've done a lot of experimentation with different methods, and my best results come from combining cleaning fluids, vacuum and pure water with ultrasonic- I'll pre-clean a record, then clean it in the ultrasonic and dry it with pure water on the vacuum machine.
For mild cleaning, I use Hannl fluid- hard to get since his distribution in the States was very uneven. Someone bought the company recently and supposedly, is going to run it better. His fluid can be purchased in concentrate, I mix it with the high grade water, I like how it flows on the Monks, which has a somewhat unique vacuum nozzle system that involves a continuous spool of thread to act as a buffer between the nozzle and record surface. As the waste liquid is sucked up, the contaminated thread is pushed on, and new thread replaces it at the nozzle; the old thread gets sucked up through the waste tube on the arm as well-- so there is a "flow" aspect to fluid on the Monks that may or may not be a consideration for your RCM. The Hannl applies best with a brush- I use the Monks brushes.
PS: I use separate brushes or applicators, marked for different fluids and rinse. I clean them during a long session and afterwards, using 99% alcohol and reagent water. (So, my rinse brush is never used for a detergent or cleaner).
I don't find alcohol to be a particularly good solvent for most record cleaning issues, nothing wrong with it, the amount of time it is on a record is minimal so I don't think it damages the vinyl, but I think one of its chief attributes is its evaporative capabilities. I like it best to clean up the brushes and pads, and not to clean the records, but AIVS (and probably others) also sell an alcohol-based cleaner if you prefer that.
As to claims over the Walker v AIVS, I can just tell you my experience using both. The AIVS #15 plus lab water does just as good a job as the Walker with 1/2 the steps.

 

OMG. This picture proves to me that audiophilia is an affliction.

 

Once I got to a certain point with records and LP playback, having the ability to get a record really clean became important. I did a lot of experimentation to get where I am, and my methods keep evolving. I would recommend DIY ultrasonic over the commercial "audiophile" ones, not because of cost, but greater flexibility. Yeah, a little over the top, but when you consider the investment in the records involved, it isn't crazy. And occasionally, a person will send me or bring me a record to clean. I may be able to get rid of more groove grunge so the record plays cleaner than it did using their equipment, but what is really noticeable is how much more information you are getting out of the grooves. Plus, I'm really compulsive. And like to clean stuff anyway. I used to spend many, many hours detailing my own cars- loved doing that. So, it all fits. For me.

 

I'm not sure you meant this to be a jab, but I look at that pic and I see someone who has a very nice investment they want to protect and also someone who is about as much an "archivist" as you can get without being certified by the Smithsonian (and for all I know, Bill is!). I have much humbler equipment but in the end, these are just tools for very specific jobs. And even in my setup, I take a lot of pride in "rescuing" a scarce, but rather beat up copy of an album. It's quite the sense of accomplishment and proof that some of this music isn't as lost as it could be. Honestly I don't associate it with "audiophilia" in so far as that being a statement about trying to grab that last mouse fart out of the grooves, but simply restoring and preserving delicate media.

Just my $.02

 

Thank you kindly sir for taking the time to share with us your excellent experience. You just saved me a LOT of messing around!

Cheers mate!

 

'...grab the last mouse fart'...

I fully agree mate! There is definitely something to be said when you find what LOOKS like a goner album, and you are amazingly able to bring it back to life!

 

Thanks for the kind words, @toddrhodes and glad to help, @latheofheaven.
My background is not biochemistry or materials science- I was a copyright lawyer in NYC for 35-6 years. (One thing lawyers learn is how to ask the right questions).
I became intrigued with the whole process of cleaning LPs and spent time tapping the expertise of various specialists and archivists. One thing you might enjoy is a piece I wrote several years ago about my visit to the Library of Congress Preservation Facility: A Visit to the Library of Congress Audiovisual Preservation Facility - The Vinyl Press
I believe it links to an interview I did with a specialist on cleaning techniques.

 

Awesome! I THINK I ran into that before, but I will definitely check it out now.

Thanks Bro!

PS: Do you think I could sue you or something for the emotional stress caused by seeing your setup...?

(Oh, Copyright law, never mind... )

 

Lathe- if you get to Austin at some point, let me know, we can arrange a visit/listening session.

 

Well, that certainly is nice and would be well worth the trip I'm sure!

Of course, it would frigg'n SPOIL me for being able to listen to anything else afterward...

Thanks kindly Bill!

Jaime.