Experience with today's hi-end integrated amplifiers?

Great post. There’s no absolutes in hifi and the more you spend then it becomes increasingly about preference. This is particularly true about speakers which is where the greatest ‘distortion’ from the original signal manifests itself (in combination with your room).

I’ve always valued midrange texture and weight, with a depth to the soundstage- at all price levels some amps do this and some don’t. Hence the importance of demos in your own system and paying little attention to reviews.

 

Noted!

Here's the thing. In the event that I find that it falls short of my current separates (and therefore, presumably the "uber integrated"), then all anyone has to say is that I had expectation bias. Regardless, it would be irresponsible to pass on an audition of the A-S3000. I'd like @Steve Hoffman to check it out. And certainly a few of the folks stopping by here who've got mega buck systems.

Now, with all that said, take a guess at how many audiophiles on this forum alone have a pre-amp or power amp (or integrated) which simply can't be ignored and will beat anything 3x the price!? If we all had to try every piece of gear in existence in our own system for the several weeks it takes to truly give a chance, then we'd never do anything else.

One more thing.....

What is about the parts quality and design of the A-S3000 which sets it apart? The engineer behind it must be at least as competent as the other guys. Perhaps far more. Else, the argument must be that sound quality from pre and power amplification pretty much comes to an end quickly and there's little to gain from pricey parts and elaborate designs.

 

I moved from an Audio Research pre/Parasound power/Audio Research phono separates combo to a Jeff Rowland Design Group Continuum S2 integrated amp with built in HP phono stage matched to my cartridge. I can honestly say I enjoy the sound more now than before. So for these ears, spending $10k+ on an integrated can bring you sound fully the equal of a comparably priced separates combination.

 

TAS - Continuum S2

Another Class D option. Nice review!

I'm planning to go A/B and I even wonder if I'll be dipping into B on something like the T+A. Ideally, I'll find an entirely more amazing level of performance (beyond my separates) with some of the products discussed in this thread

 

A thing to remember is that many of these uber expensive products are made by boutique manufacturers who produce them in very limited quantities. They don't have the buying power of say a company like Yamaha or Marantz. I don't know about Yamaha, but Marantz has top level design people that aren't far removed, if they are at all, from these boutique designers.

Could a boutique designer bring to market a Marantz Reference IA not costing at least twice the price? Interesting question, n'est çe pas?

 

Yes, it would be a huge mistake to use only MSRP. I'm more interest in the man (usually, a man) behind the design. Andreas Koch at Playback Designs, for example, is someone I hold in high regard. He can't buy parts in huge quantities, but his approach and experience is what you're paying for. Also, there are few shortcuts on quality since there's no finance team, etc.

My front projector is a JVC RS600. They have scale. And they have engineering prowess in projection. The results speak for themselves and the price is better than boutiques (or even Sony, ha ha). So, yeah, I'm well aware of this factor. It is quite likely to spend gobs of money when far less could have delivered a better result. That goes for home theater for sure. So many hard lessons. And they get super expensive really fast. Fortunately, I don't have money. LOL.

 

Agree there is no shortage of choice at any price point. However there are some designs clearly meant for specific speakers - for example I wouldn’t choose to match the T+A 3100 HV amp with Steve Hoffman’s Audio Note speakers , as much as I wouldn’t try to drive the Boenickes in my second system with his Ongaku- they just don’t match and weren’t designed for each other.

If you keep your Diablos I’ll be intrigued to see long term if you go for a solid state amplifier.

 

Ken Ishiwata is one of the reasons I sought out and bought Marantz Reference.

 

Neither would I choose Dynaudio speakers. I heard a pairing of T+A/Dynaudio (don't recall the exact models) at the first TAVE Show in Toronto. It was brutal and I wasn't the only one with that opinion.

 

I'm not sure if valves are something you're considering, but I've heard the Raven Reflection MK 2 and thought it was wonderful. Link here:

Reflection MK2 Integrated Amplifier

It was out of my league when I was looking for an integrated earlier this year, but I did end up with the Raven Eagle, with which it has many similarities. If I was going solid state, like others in this thread I'm very impressed with theAS-2100 which - even though not in the same class as others you've mentioned - is worth an audition. I'm hoping to get a chance to hear their AS-3000.

 

I'd like to go all SS (so not even hybrid integrated). There is a high percent of audiophiles, it seems, who avoid SS at any price point or design. Steve Hoffman is big into tubes, so that is why I'm hoping he'll have a chance to review the T+A for us. It has a reputation for not giving up ground to tube designs (fluidity, flow, sweetness).

Do we have any forum members who can briefly summarize design differences? For example, the Yamaha uses MOSFETs and the T+A uses JFETs. What about the use of feedback? Of course, there's both the pre-amp and power amp sections to consider. Attenuation design, etc.

 

At the risk of trying to sound like I’m speaking for Steve, I’m not sure what you would learn from getting his review through his kit?

Audio Notes philosophy is to have very sensitive speakers and then use very high quality low powered but high end transformer, amplifiers, where just a few watts will drive his AN speakers to room filling volume.

In contrast the T+A is a refined muscle amp which has high output power and can double down as impedance halves (not really an issue with AN speakers). This kind of amp is meant to drive speakers with sensitivity in the 80s not the 90s or 100s.

I think when people describe the T+A as sounding valve like they are comparing it to mid to high power valves along the EL34, KT88, 6550 lines rather than the 300b, 211 SET types that just drive a few watts.

It’s horses for courses. That’s why I have two systems, one with Avantgarde horns driven by 8 watts of 300b valves, and the second being Boenickes driven by 250 + watts from a Perreaux integrated amp. They’re completely different philosophies, and produce very nice but different results. The Perreaux sounds nice with the horns but not as nice as 300b tubes, not for that matter, as good as a First Watt power amp with 30w but no doubling down (because the horns don’t need this or present that kind of load to the amp).

The good news is that the T+A will drive your Diablos and then some, with tons of headroom. The bottleneck sonically with be your speakers (or your room), not the amp.

 

There's also this review of the Continuum S2

Jeff Rowland Design Group Continuum S2 Integrated Amplifier - The Audio Beat - www.TheAudioBeat.com

 

These days how an amp is designed, tube or solid state, or what class the amp is, is less relevant than how it sounds. There are superb designs in every category. Just make sure of two things - does it sound as you prefer, and does it have enough power to drive your speakers properly.

 

What I'd be interested in is "destination amplification". Both sections- pre and power. Not necessarily the last word on what's possible at the perimeter of "cost-no-object", but close to that in performance. There won't be any problem driving my speakers, but the sound quality is what's going to matter. I expect every aspect of sound quality to improve fairly dramatically. My current pre and power amplification is pretty good, but no one is going to put it in the same league as the T+A PA 3100 HV. I'll have to hear for myself if the price is worth it.

 

I have not heard the T+A PA 3100. I've seen a lot of things marketed in the high-dollar audio world as a "major upgrade", but unless the previous version was a complet turkey (which is most definitely not the case with the T+A), major upgrade means a new faceplate, new firmware, a new DAC chipset, a new phono stage, a revised or completely new volume control, and perfectly matched capacitors from brand 'M' instead of the previously perfectly matched ones from brand 'L'. The reviewers all subsequently state, "Oh, pffft, of course it's an amazing but subtle with nonetheless plainly brilliant but finely nuanced but logical but possessed of a certain je ne sais quoi but bold but gently urging improvement that is undeniably worth the new pricing of 38,000" ($, €, £, whatever). Sorry, I think I just inadvertently dis'd T+A when I didn't mean to do so. T+A is a scarce thing in Toronto, and I won't be in London (and a chance for an audition) for another couple of months. I've already got a long enough list of Europeans to audition in London in the Fall that I'll probably need at least a day and a half.

Important question. To me, over the past twenty-six or twenty-seven years in particular, 90%-95% means that the individual instrument timbres that I have heard thousands of times at concerts in both large, medium size and small halls and venues are reproduced accurately by the recording (vinyl, CD, stream, FM broadcast, high-res file from my home network) through the amplification and speakers I'm using at home. I'll forgive stereo imaging imperfections (because perfect stereo that places instruments and voice in perfect order across the sound stage is never how performances are heard and perceived live), sound stage imperfections (that is, as long as Charlap's piano is on the left and Mike Murley is on the right as I heard them live at Jazz Bistro in Toronto), as long as the instrument voicing (e.g., as set up by Herbie Hancock for each of his live performance keyboards), and human voices (too many performances to pick just one for this example), etc., etc., are accurately realistic to my ears. My LFD NSCE MKII is the reference in my (main) system right now. My Naim Supernait 2 follows closely, with the Yamaha A-S 2100 nipping at its heels. I've got a Krell 300i (currently stored in its box) that I was using for a few months during the winter. The Krell is very, very good despite being the Chinese-made model with all the associate lack of traditional Krell cachet as a result. Frankly, I like the Yamaha better, and the other ones a lot better. Got to sell the Krell (ridiculously heavy pig that it is). I've got a nice Unison S6 valve integrated that knocks it out of the park, but it's a &*%!* space heater during the summer and I just can't use it. I'm tired of tubes anyway - going to sell the S6 too.

For what it's worth (after all, it's only my personal preference and can't be imposed as a definition on anyone else), by my personal definition the remaining 5%-10% of high-end quality resides in nuance that is partly emotional and that derives from the craftsmanship the maker brings to the table, but that technically derives from very subtle instrument texture and very quiet accents that are partially obscured by amplification that has a noise floor which is higher than the subtlety on the recording that I'm trying to hear. The best gear is quiet enough to let you hear absolutely everything on the recording, something that's easy enough to demonstrate when doing a side-by-side comparsion of the Yamaha A-S2100 and a Cambridge Azur 851, or when comparing an LFD NCSE MKII and a Naim Unitilite, or when comparing a Gryphon Diablo 300 with a Cary Audio SI-300.2D integrated. But wait, The CA SI-300.2D is vanishingly quiet, so that's not quite right. The Cambridge Azur 851 is neither measurably in the quietest category, but nor is it noisy enough to mask subtleties either. It's just that the Cambridge is most often sold into systems that don't boast speakers capable providing everything the 851 can throw at them. And the Naim Unitilite, a years-long home run for Naim that has only just been bested - barely bested - by the new Uniti series (albeit without the Unitilite's CD player) is quiet enough that the background noise in the majority of audiophile listening rooms is a bigger problem that anything in the way of noise being fed to loudspeakers by the Unitilite.

I think you've mentioned earlier in this thread that you're using Cary Audio amplification. If that's correct, then you've got a problem. I've never heard a Cary Audio product that I didn't like a lot. That is to say, a lot. Altronics Stereo in Toronto set up a personal in-store demo for me late in 2017 of the brand new Cary Audio AIOS. I think it was the pre-release unit in Eastern Canada that the distributor was shopping around to all his customers. Holy smokes! What an amazing little thing. Power, sophistication, a feature set about a mile wide and a mile deep, and gorgeous sound. Class D, I thought at the time, had better make a bolder appearance at my place soon. Cary has it wired, no doubt. My point is that if you're running relatively late model Cary amplification, you're going to have to get into Luxman and Accuphase territory in order to hear something that to your ears is definitively better and worth the effort to make the change.

I think the same consideration applies to Bel Canto's ACI 600 Black, which is already at US$25,000. A very nice guy who regularly visits my favorite audio shop in Toronto owns one the glorious ACI 600 Black integrated amp. I think he deals with a high-end store called Angie's Place up in Richmond Hill in Toronto. Anyway, he's not happy with it because (guess what?) he auditioned the Esoteric at Altronics and had his head turned by the F1 driving a pair of huge JBLs in the store. I am telling you and anyone else who'll listen that there is so little to choose between the ACI 600 and the F1 that anyone who claims to be able to hear a difference (when switching between the two while not knowing which is which at any given moment) is BS'ing unless he can prove that he is consistently able to nail the ID. I mean, along with your Cary gear and so many others already mentioned repeatedly in this thread, the worthwhile difference - the ones that make a consistent and enduring improvement to dedicated music listening have gotten really hard to come by.

I have to ask how you define "come(s) close" when comparing integrateds with integrateds or integrateds with separates. I've described what guides my own judgement, and if yours is clear in your own thinking too then it's probably most important to find a professional reviewer who shares your view (and has a similar ear most likely). Auditioning is half the fun. I'm lucky in Toronto because I've got a wealth of audition resources and very good relationships (and a couple of valued frienships) with the terrific audio merchants in the city. I'll say again too about Cary Audio gear, because when a Cary setup even sounds good in high-sales-pressure, lousy acoustics and screwball, haywired auditions at Tabangi Electronics (in Concord in northwest Toronto) it's a sign that the gear is quite good indeed. I own a Cary HH-1 headphone amp that I won't part with, and for all the right reasons.

The Yamaha A-S3000 is a grand slam homer from Yamaha, in my view. Yamaha brings an enormous amount of engineering and design resources to the table. I am reminded of delays at Schiit and at MyTek when production of the Yggdrasil or the Manhattan (or Brooklyn+) DACs are delayed because one of the parts makers (or suppliers) in each company's respective supply chain fails to produce what's needed for the Schiit or MyTek order. Yamaha doesn't usually suffer those kinds of issues because when its buyers specify esoteric, closely matched parts in relatively limited quantities, the parts makers and suppliers sit up and take notice and do what they need to do to keep a great customer happy. Of course Schiit, MyTek, Gryphon, T+A, Pass Labs and many other companies at the top of the high end are noticed and respected too, but they do not individually carry the weight that Yamaha does and the obviously much smaller companies generally end up paying more for esoteric parts. That influence and all those design and engineering resources doen't make Yamaha designs inherently superior, but it does make them inherently less expensive at retail. Yamaha also has deep production distribution channels that no boutique or medium size maker can do anything more than dream about. All that combines to create the wide price delta but narrow performance delta between the A-S2100 and A-S3000 and a lot of comparatively scary-pricey high-end audio.

Cary Audio is hard to beat. You've also got Focal Diablo Utopia III standmounts listed in your profile. Like my Kudos Super 10s and a number of other superb standmounts I can think of and that I've auditioned or owned, speakers of this size don't get much better at any price. In the quest for better and better music at home, we're fighting for the last few percentage points (or fractions of a percentage point in some cases) of what's actually audible to a human in our respective listening rooms.

Meh! Luxman class A is still calling.

Anyway, that's my prespective on high-end integrateds. They're close to my heart. Great thread.

 

Great post

 

Unless one needs gobs of power, more than can be put on a single chassis, it's hard for me to see any advantages to separates, and lots of disadvantages. I don't do phono any more, and back when I did pre-amps usually included phono pre-amps, but nowadays most pre-amps are line level only. So in an integrated one gets to avoid the interconnect interface, avoid duplicating power supplies, etc, and be fairly sure that the "pre-amp" and "power amp" sections are well matched by the designer. There are few if any high-end electronics companies that don't offer at least one integrated amp, which speaks at least a bit to their desirability. One can hardly make the "affordable" argument when describing an integrated amp from Soulution, Gryphon, Dartzeel, Vitus, etc

 

Noted. In this instance, the replacement model has been genuinely reworked. Both sections. It had been 8 years, I believe, since the 3000 came along. The price in the US is the problem. I think the base model (without phono stage) is EUR 16,000 in Germany. The price here is $23,500.

Timbre is, of course, critical, but I do value numerous aspects which comprise sound quality. You mention the noise floor. You mention imaging, which is important to me. I like images and soundstage to be large, but not exaggerated. I like immediacy. Extended highs and lows. Fast transients attacks. I want the speakers to disappear (transparency). I don't want all recordings to sound the same as if one or more components are cheating to create a "pleasing" sound, but I do expect what some describe as sweetness. The opposite of which, to me, is a dry or course sound. All of these things are relative. An upgrade isn't an upgrade if these attributes and others do not clearly improve.

Yes, Cary amplification including factory upgraded SLP-05 (the original designed by Dennis Had) and also very well regarded NOS pre-amp tubes and rectifier tube. My SS amp is back at Cary now for an exchange for the re-release 200.2 ES (long story). No stereo for me this weekend! Home theater will keep me going though. I have a factory upgraded Playback Designs MPS-5. Shunyata Denali power line conditioning. An amazing component, honestly. Gotta upgrade power cords and, yes, I will be expecting quite a leap in overall sound quality. I don't care what the skeptics say on that matter.

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Appreciate your contributions. Hoping we attract many, many more forum members!

 

Audionet WATT review

Industrial designer Hartmut Esslinger of Frogdesign (Sony Walkman, Apple Macintosh) is responsible for the look of their higher end models, including, I believe, the upcoming integrated amp Humboldt.

 

My separates are back in action! FedEx delivered my new Cary Audio 200.2 ES. Same as my non-ES, nearly. They are reintroducing their flagship SS power amps (from 2012 or so) and I wanted the model which will presumably get the marketing.

I hate break in, but when I sell then there won't be any confusion. Should be all settled in by next weekend.

I will try to upgrade all power cords as soon as I can. Then I'll look into borrowing the top Yamaha integrated.

 

It operates as a "circlotron" circuit, which is pretty rare these days, has a ladder resistance volume control, and floats the ground - which probably accounts for it's dead quiet operation (also goes for the 2100 and 1100). Their built-in phono stages are more than respectable as well.

 

Interesting. For comparison sake, the T+A amps are:

Cascode Operation
At great expense of efficiency, class-A operation reduces nonlinearities due to current fluctuations through the transistor. However, it does not affect nonlinearities in the transistor due to voltage changes. There is a method for eliminating such nonlinearities called cascode operation, where the voltage across the transistor, tubes, or FETS is frozen at a constant value, completely eliminating voltage-induced distortions.


With any luck, maybe a few EE types will come along and chime in. I'm especially curious about the SS pre-amp sections. Primary concern for me will be whether or not they're competitive with my current tube pre.

 

I don’t think the 3100 HV has a pre in, but it does have pre out, so when you audition one in your set up you can do a like for like comparison of the preamp stage through your existing power amps if you are curious.

However I’m most looking forward to your findings from the 3100 vs your current pre - power set up.

 

A very good amplifier... actually I like the brand.

I have listened to the Rowland... sounds a little soft on the edges and I miss the dynamics of the Pass and Nagra.