Film noirs discussion

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by Timeless Classics, Sep 7, 2020.

  1. socorro

    socorro Forum Resident

    Location:
    pennsylvania
    I think later films like Serpico and The Taking Of Pelham 123 fit the genre.
     
  2. "Double Indemnity", the movie that inspired "Body Heat" is pretty much definitive.
     
  3. jeffmackwood

    jeffmackwood Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ottawa
    I could write essays on the topic ... and have. But here's a few random thoughts addressing some points already raised, and others.

    Film Noir is not a genre. It is defined by a number of elements: by date of production; by theme, by style, etc. Some crime dramas are Film Noir; others are lacking a number of Noir elements, and thus are not.

    All Film Noir are dated between 1940 (The Letter, Stranger on the Third Floor) and 1959 (The Beat Generation, The Crimson Kimono, Odds Against Tomorrow.) Anything outside of those dates is not Film Noir, but rather some hyphenated version of it (like neo-Noir.) And to repeat, just because it's a black and white crime drama (or some other genre), and falls between those dates, does not make it a Film Noir.

    The best comprehensive compendium of all Film Noir is, in my opinion, Silver & Ward's book Film Noir. In the edition that I have, they list and describe in detail 266 Film Noir. Copies of all of those reside in my collection. :)

    I have no single favourite, but I used to do an annual event for a group of friends where I presented one and then screened it. Being a big fan of Bogart meant that the first two were The Big Sleep (1946) and The Maltese Falcon (1941.) My mother, before she passed away, once told me that Laura (1944) was her all-time favourite movie - so of course that was one that I screened.

    When I think of Western movies I immediately think of the great director John Ford. Not too many others immediately come to mind. But when I think of Film Noir there's at least a dozen that stand out including Siodmak, Preminger, Welles, Lang, Hitchcock, Dmytryk, and Curtiz.

    Can we talk about screwball comedies next? :)

    Jeff
     
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  4. Timeless Classics

    Timeless Classics Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    Sounds good to me!
     
  5. Wildest cat from montana

    Wildest cat from montana Humble Reader

    Location:
    ontario canada
    'Double Indemnity' may be the best noir of them all. It's got everything : murder , a slimy lead man , a definitive femme fatale and that classic film noir look.
     
  6. Paul J

    Paul J Forum Resident

    Location:
    Baltimore
    The change in the career of Fred MacMurray never ceases to amaze me. As a kid all I knew for years was Steve Douglas.

    Double Indemnity, Caine Mutiny, The Apartment to the Disney & My Three Sons. Looking at his filmography, just now, I was surprised that The Shaggy Dog came out before The Apartment.

    A close second would be Ernest Borgnine.
     
  7. Paul J

    Paul J Forum Resident

    Location:
    Baltimore
    Thanks again for the tip!!

    Watched it today and loved it, the rain outside didn’t hurt.

    Couldn’t wait for Talman to buy it, but it would’ve been a 15 minute film.

    He was great, and always, always enjoy Edmund O’Brien.
     
  8. Professor Batty

    Professor Batty Forum Resident

    Location:
    Anoka Mn
    There is more to Hamilton Burger than meets the half-closed eye!
     
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  9. Paul J

    Paul J Forum Resident

    Location:
    Baltimore
    re: Edmund O'Brien, has D.O.A. been mentioned?

    Great movie, but unfortunately back in the early 80s, Nick At Night would do a sort of Fractured Flickers routine on movies and with D.O.A., it was O'Brien as Ricky Ricardo. Now anytime I see it, can't get that out of my head.
     
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  10. Dream On

    Dream On Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canada
    I have never really been clear on the definition of Film Noir, and it seems I am not the only one. I guess that's because there really is no clear definition. It's almost like one is looking for clues that point to a movie qualifying as a Film Noir, and clues are open to interpretation.

    So why are these films dated within that 20 year span? Is it because of this definition?

    What Is Film Noir?

    Film Noir has four elements (taken from above link):

    1. WWII and post-war disillusionment
    2. Post-war realism
    3. German influence
    4. Hard boiled

    So I imagine then, relation to the war puts this into the time span you provided. And Neo-Noir coincided with the Cold War. And maybe this sub-genre (or whatever it is) of Neo-Noir just hasn't died out because our cynicism and disillusionment is still with us. And maybe we just flat out enjoy it. But it's not Film Noir, because that describes a kind of movement in film relating to very specific events and a feeling that took hold in the 30s/40s, which didn't really exist before that.
     
  11. Wildest cat from montana

    Wildest cat from montana Humble Reader

    Location:
    ontario canada
    I know it's not the best medium to watch movies but YouTube has hundreds of film noir flicks.
    Plenty of crap but some real good ones too.
     
  12. jeffmackwood

    jeffmackwood Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ottawa
    More important than the bullets alone, it's the details about each one that are key to fully defining Film Noir. Even more importantly, the list of characteristics that follow those bullets in the article really hone in on defining what makes a film Film Noir.

    There are many excellent books on the subject and most, if not all, will have very similar takes. As well as Silver & Ward's book that I previously referenced, I'd recommend Foster Hirsch's the dark side of the screen - film noir. Books that are more academic and dig down into very specific aspects of Film Noir include Frank Krutnik's In A Lonely Place - film noir, genre, and masculinity, and J.P Telotte's Voices In The Dark - The Narrative Patterns of Film Noir. I was able to quickly find copies of all three over at AbeBooks by searching on the authors' names alone.

    Jeff
     
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  13. finslaw

    finslaw muzak to my ears

    Location:
    Indiana
    Thought I'd try ranking my favorite noir directors based solely on that genre, with consideration to quantity/quality. Hope I didn't forget some:

    1) Fritz Lang - Enjoy all his American noirs, which
    2) Sam Fuller - So offbeat, and all his noirs shine.
    3) Billy Wilder - I love love love the 3 most famous ones, but not a big Ace in the Hole fan.
    4) Robert Siodmak - Consistently fun noir, and a lot of them.
    5) Nicholas Ray - Similar to Wilder, love some noirs (In a Lonely Place/On Dangerous Ground) the rest are okay.
    6) Otto Preminger - Fun noirs, even if some border on ridiculous (Angel Face's ending.)
    7) Andre De Toth - Love 3 of his noirs (Dark Waters, Pitfall, Crime Wave.)
    8) Jacques Tourneur - All noirs are worthy, if Night of the Demon qualifies bump this higher.
    9) Orson Welles - Most would rate higher, I have to be in the mood for some of them.
    10) Edward Dymytryk - Mainly due to Crossfire, Obsession and Sniper.
    11) Joseph H Lewis - Love 2 of them, and Big Combo is good too.
    12) James Brahm - Underrated, love all his noirish films. Would love to see Guest in the House in its long version.
    13) Robert Wise - Seen 3 of his noirs and they were good.
    14) Edgar Ulmer - enjoyed all his noirs I've seen, if low budget.
    15) Delmer Daves - Underrated, wish he did more.
    16) Anthony Mann - Love his westerns, but Raw Deal is the real deal.
    17) John Huston/Howard Hawks - a couple I'm okay with, some I find overrated (mostly the Bogie ones.)

    PS: Alfred Hitchcock - Not sure how many are noir, but the ones that might count are great.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2020
  14. jeffmackwood

    jeffmackwood Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ottawa
    Silver & Ward consider four (4) of Hitchcok's films to be Film Noir:

    Shadow of a Doubt (1943)
    Notorious (1946)
    Strangers on a Train (1951)
    The Wrong Man (1956)

    I recall that I had some doubts about whether Notorious belonged, or not. Enough so to write an essay about it. That was nearly thirty years ago so forgive me if I can't reconstruct my arguments at this time. :)

    Jeff
     
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  15. finslaw

    finslaw muzak to my ears

    Location:
    Indiana
    No Suspicion, Spellbound, Rope, Dial M for Murder, Rear Window or Vertigo? Especially the latter. Hell, even Rebecca has the feel.

    I would probably nestle him in at #5 with your list, and #2 if it included mine too.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2020
  16. BroJB

    BroJB Large Marge sent me.

    Location:
    New Orleans
    Gun Crazy is the perfect noir. It's brilliant.

    DOA is one of the most exciting films I've ever seen.

    And Detour, a terrific low budget film, features an all time great performance from Ann Savage.

    Those are my top 3.
     
  17. Maseman66

    Maseman66 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Westchester, NY
    Of those not mentioned, Fallen Angel (1945) is one of my favorites, with Dana Andrews and the beautiful Linda Darnell. Also, I Wake Up Screaming (1941) with Victor Mature, Carol Landis and Betty Grable.
     
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  18. Joshua Tree

    Joshua Tree Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hamburg, Germany
    Can a moderator please correct the thread title?
     
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  19. Great films all, but for me, (and this is just my personal predudice), to be Noir, it has to be black and white.
     
  20. Timeless Classics

    Timeless Classics Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    What's wrong with the thread title?
     
    Paul J likes this.
  21. Wildest cat from montana

    Wildest cat from montana Humble Reader

    Location:
    ontario canada
    If it's in colour it's film noir-ish.
     
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  22. Joshua Tree

    Joshua Tree Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hamburg, Germany
    There‘s no plural for Film Noir. Should be Film Noir discussion.
     
  23. smilin ed

    smilin ed Senior Member

    Location:
    Durham
    Always hoped he'd make more.
     
  24. Maranatha5585

    Maranatha5585 BELLA + RIP In Memoriam

    Location:
    Down South
    @MerseyBeatle ~ Wanted to make sure you saw the thread buddy :cheers:
     
  25. Witchy Woman

    Witchy Woman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Third Coast, USA
    I’m a fan of these films but they don’t capture the film noir mood, imo. The “hard-boiled” element (as someone mentioned in another post) isn’t really there. Rebecca comes close but even that is more of a gothic mystery/thriller.
     
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