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Fleetwood Mac / Before The Beginning 1968-1970: Rare Live & Demo Sessions

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by four sticks, Apr 2, 2019.

  1. TheDailyBuzzherd

    TheDailyBuzzherd Forum Resident

    Location:
    Northeast USA

    So the REAL story is that Peter was on his way out for a variety
    of reasons and some of them have to do with band dynamics.
    He continued to trip for a few more years and THAT's how he
    damaged his brain.

    Roadies to this day insist that Green and Kirwan became mentally ill
    starting with that party. The rest of the band stick to that story.

    Do you think that German cult's attempts to capture Peter and
    "reprogram" him also could've been a factor?
     
    t-man 54 likes this.
  2. TheDailyBuzzherd

    TheDailyBuzzherd Forum Resident

    Location:
    Northeast USA
    The closest we got to a FM reunion:


     
  3. DTK

    DTK Forum Resident

    Location:
    Europe
    Danny Kirwan was not even at the party in Munich, alcohol was his problem. I know that Clifford Davis says in that horrible documentary that Danny was there, but he's lying. Everyone else says only roadie Dennis Keen and Peter went to the party, as they have both stated. Mick and John never claimed Danny went. And if you listen to what they say, they were horrified that Peter - their meal ticket and superstar - was leaving the band, and that happened after "Munich". That's why John is furious, not at what happened to Peter later on, clearly.

    Tripping was not how Peter damaged his brain, if he did - I think it's wrong to assume that without knowing. Somehow he developed schizophrenia - the LSD may have triggered that, or not, it could have happened anyway. We will never know.

    The real damage to his memory and well being was when he was subjected to primitive electroconvulsive therapy and pumped full of drugs in UK hospitals in 1973-76. So blame the UK healthcare, not German jet setters.

    The German cult - it wasn't even a cult - did not "capture" Peter and they had no plans at "reprogramming" him. By their own accounts the idea was to get in touch with The Rolling Stones through Peter as they planned on staging a Bavarian rock festival.

    The Munich LSD party thing is mostly a myth, should we believe Peter himself or other people with vested interests in framing the story? I know what I think.
     
  4. Stu54

    Stu54 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Stornoway
    You are incorrect. I know one of their roadies and he stated, categorically, that ‘Peter was never the same after he came back from that party’. He had no reason to lie to me.
     
    TheDailyBuzzherd likes this.
  5. DTK

    DTK Forum Resident

    Location:
    Europe
    Who? Only Dennis Keen was there. So is this some other roadie?

    What could have happened in one single night to never make him "the same"? And in what way was he different? Does he have any opinion on that?

    Look, I believe that the roadie told you this, but don't you think his opinion might be colored by what happened a few years later?

    Peter took LSD from 1968 to 1971 at least, this was just one of those occasions. He played extremely well after March 1970 and there are radio interviews where is is lucid and intelligent. There's no evidence at all that he suffered some kind of damage, rather a mountain of counter-evidence that he didn't. You can't say I'm wrong without proving otherwise.
     
    jay.dee and crozcat like this.
  6. Stu54

    Stu54 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Stornoway
    You’re clearly over invested in this.
     
  7. DTK

    DTK Forum Resident

    Location:
    Europe
    No, I feel I want to defend Peter and his memory against baseless rumours and also lies. Because I love him. So please provide input if you can.
     
    TheDailyBuzzherd likes this.
  8. Poetry1

    Poetry1 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Europe
    To add my two cents to this - Peter is along with Eric Clapton my favourite British bluzes player and in my top 10 guitarists of all time. His playing is some of the most beautiful I have ever heard., much more lyrical than most guitar players before or since.
    I have a lot of Mac shows and his solo ones and his playing in Aperil 70 is great<, as DTK states.
    The comeback solo 1979 album has Greeny in great form as well, a bit less bite on the guitar, but still fluid and not subdued too much. He played most of the leads on that album. His voice is more fragile and lower in register,
    His playing and singing (based on the tapes) deteoriated sometime inaround 1982, I think.

    As far as Munich is concerned, going by the songs, the mental upheaval - not necessarily caused by drugs can be seen already on some songs he wrote on Then play on and most
    notably on songs like Close my eyes and Show.biz Blues - the speaker in these songs feels abandoned, kisolated and misunderstood as well as doubtful about his own self-worth , mixing reality and dreams....
    Even if the speaker does not represent Green himself in all instances, there are strong autobiographical references here, imo, especially when you compare these woith most of the earlier lyrics he wrote except Man of the world.
    And All of these were witten before 1970. So even if not umenshowing severe signs of the ilness, he seemed pretty unhappy internally well before March 1970. Green Manalishi ws also written before Munich.
    I think Munich might have lead to a more pronounced change in the eyes of some people around him, but it was not so sudden. And as DGTK says, the playing was still great after. that, he stepped in for Jeremy Spencer in 71 for a few shows and whhile the insistance on not playing any older songs and then jamming for hours on Black magic woman seem to show the mental problems have progressed, they were still not as serious as to leaving him unable to perform or record - he put solo singles out in 71 and did guest appearances on other albums in 71 as well.
     
  9. PacificOceanBlue

    PacificOceanBlue Senior Member

    Location:
    The Southwest
    It is certainly plausible that the overuse of LSD/hallucinogens contributed to his mental issues (Syd Barrett was another alleged victim of such abuse). Even Bob Weir suffered the effects of hallucinogens in the late 1960's and stopped using for an extended period of time to recover. Whether Green's frequent use during the 1968-1971 period was the primary catalyst of his mental issues will remain a topic of debate.
     
    TheDailyBuzzherd and DTK like this.
  10. alchemy

    alchemy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sterling, VA
    Nice Thread
     
  11. Just to backup DTK, Danny was NOT at the party in Munich. More interesting to me is that he was one of Janis Joplin's conquests (!)
     
    DTK likes this.
  12. PhilBorder

    PhilBorder Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sheboygan, WI
    That is some of the most fluid but intense guitar soloing I've ever heard. And that tone....
     
    hoggydoggy and bbanderic like this.
  13. t-man 54

    t-man 54 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Michigan
    Jeremy Spencer also claims on the Peter Green documentary that Danny was at the Munich party.
     
    TheDailyBuzzherd likes this.
  14. beatleswho

    beatleswho Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chile
    Sorry, i arrive late to this thread. I have a dilemma. I need to buy some Peter Green’s Fleetwood Mac live sets on vinyl. Wish one i need first, Boston Tea Party or Before the Beginning Sets?
    Thanks for the advice!
     
  15. Poetry1

    Poetry1 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Europe
    Boston, no doubt.
     
  16. beatleswho

    beatleswho Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chile
    Thank you so much!
     
  17. TheDailyBuzzherd

    TheDailyBuzzherd Forum Resident

    Location:
    Northeast USA
    Well I got one question answered. Fleetwood encouraged the band
    to move into Kiln House AFTER Peter resigned, so Peter probably
    never lived there.

    Does anyone have any funny Peter stories? Supposedly Jimmy Page
    had a number of 'em he'd tell. FM as a whole seemed to have a great
    sense of humor. A bit naughty, that bunch.
     
  18. Stu54

    Stu54 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Stornoway
    Love him all you want, but that roadie wasn’t lying to me about the obvious after-effects of that party on Peter’s behaviour and personality. He went into some detail about this and other experiences. I’m not in some dock that I have to subject myself to your cross examination.
     
  19. DTK

    DTK Forum Resident

    Location:
    Europe
    Indeed, but I don't have to take your unverified "roadie" story as anything approaching truth either. Why do you refuse to name the roadie?

    I'd venture a guess he's Dinky Dawson (the band didn't have many roadies and he's clearly not Dennis Keen) and in that case he's remembering things others involved do not remember (also, he seems to bear something of a grudge against Peter), nor are his claims borne out by the live recordings from that period. Read Martin Celmins and Rich Orlando's books on Green to get a correct picture. Ya know, roadies take drugs too...

    If Dinky would come on here, we would all behave politely I'm sure.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
    Bolero likes this.
  20. DTK

    DTK Forum Resident

    Location:
    Europe
    He doesn't, it's the editing that makes it looks that way. Jeremy is speaking of a separate occasion where Peter and Danny made a joke. It's a travesty of a documentary.
     
    midniteinsanjuan likes this.
  21. I'd start with Boston Tea Party, some of the greatest and LOUD rock and roll is featured on those sets
     
    petercl, dloew and DTK like this.
  22. Stu54

    Stu54 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Stornoway
    Incorrect, again. Cut the Perry Mason shtick.
     
  23. DTK

    DTK Forum Resident

    Location:
    Europe
    I believe what Peter Green said himself, what people who have interviewed him, his friends and musicians say, and what's on recordings.
    Not your claims what X roadie says he remembers.
    I can't tell if a) you don't want to reveal your source b) your pride is hurt when someone calls you on hearsay or c) and b

    Here's some pointers that roadie X might want to respond to:
    -Peter Green wanted to leave the band early in 1970 as the other members did not agree to donate a portion of their proceeds to charity. He grudgingly agreed to do the last European tour starting in March 1970 as he felt they were pulling in opposite directions musically and philosophically. This is borne out in contemporary interviews and accounts from musicians and fans. The charity/leaving the band idea started in 1969.
    -He stayed only one night in Munich with Dennis Keen only (Dennis had the same LSD and was fine afterwards, btw) - the band had a concert to play the next day. If there was "brainwashing" going on - which we'll never know but Peter didn't say so - it only reinforced what was already on Peter's mind since many months - leaving the band and the commercial music business.
    -He plays and sings extraordinary well on all the recorded concerts after Munich. Perhaps the best playing of his career.
    -He responsibly fulfilled all of the band's contractual agreements going into June.
    -Friends of Peter like sax player John Altman, who played with Peter from May-December 1970 noticed no decline in Peter. John says he was sharp, lucid, in good health, creative and fun to be around.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2020
    Bolero, hoggydoggy, crozcat and 2 others like this.
  24. Ryan Donahue

    Ryan Donahue Forum Resident

    Location:
    Lancaster, PA
    Could I respectfully ask you two to take this to PM. Neither of you are going to change your minds and you've both brought enough negativity to this thread.
     
  25. DTK

    DTK Forum Resident

    Location:
    Europe
    Are you a moderator, though?
    If you think the truth is negative, that's your call. I think there's a need to state the truth because there's so much bad/insulting rumors and gossip in every Green thread. So maybe you should start moderating those posters first. We cool, bro?
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
    Bolero likes this.

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