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FLEETWOOD MAC Rumours, heard it 1000 times, still love it! Our 45 RPM vinyl coming!

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Steve Hoffman, Apr 25, 2007.

  1. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Hearing In Stereo Since 1959

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    Actually, that "smoothness" and sense of ease in presentation is more apparent to me in the midrange on up. The precision of articulation in the bass, the greater spaciousness in the midrange, a smoother treble - that's what I hear, in general. It's not night and day, though. It's just enough to say that these qualities are just more present.

    An analogy might be like tuning a violin or guitar by ear. There's the moment just before you nail the relationship between two strings, say the 'perfect 4th' between E and A, and finally nailing that interval, when the vibrations lock in place. You can still play the instrument just outside of it absolutely being in tune and most people won't notice, but once you nail the tuning, there's a sense of "ahhh".

    The difference between 33s and 45s isn't like the heavens suddenly open up and the chorus starts singing with the latter, but it's enough for me to notice consistently with the medium of 45rpm 12" records.

    There was an example from a couple of years ago when a member, I believe it was @Greenmonster2420, was insistent upon that the Analogue Productions' 45rpm of Herbie Hancock's Maiden Voyage was superior to the Music Matters 33, in spite of the latter using a fresher sounding tape. It meant double-dipping for me, as I already had the MM copy.

    On his urging, I got the 45. Well, the top end sounded comparatively rolled off with the 45, but the midrange on down was still fully there, and there was that spaciousness and overall 'sense' of relaxed presentation that was superior to the 33. The 33, in comparison, sounds a bit tight or slightly more rigid.

    The difference is in the feel, the sense of rightness. Not night and day. It's subtle.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2021
    Jrr, WhatDoIKnow, Tracey and 2 others like this.
  2. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    I’m in the “45rpm generally makes a real, but almost negligible, difference” camp. You almost feel it more than hear it. I think the gain is really in having more space for the grooves rather than the increased speed. I think where the audible benefit most shows up is with longer 33 1/3 sides broken up in two.

    So, for instance, I can’t imagine there would be much to be gained by cutting, say, Van Halen’s early LPs at 45rpm when many of those sides are 15-16 minutes, I think.

    Now whether one finds the notion of breaking up sides to be of concern or not is a different, but certainly legitimate, discussion.
     
    Jrr likes this.
  3. Greenmonster2420

    Greenmonster2420 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Central Ohio
    That’s one and the same. The increased speed is because of the better spaced modulations and vice versa. You can’t have one without the other.

    This holds true for outer edge vs inner grooves on a 33rpm. The speed towards the center is slower, therefore grooves must be crunched, therefore fidelity suffers.
     
  4. Phil Tate

    Phil Tate Miss you Indy x

    Location:
    South Shields
    I'm sure it is, and I'd love to hear it, but as this thread has shown, I'd say my chances of actually finding one, especially here in the UK, are pretty slim. Even if you know exactly what to look for, it may end up not being what you get. What a frustrating mess.
     
  5. Dhreview16

    Dhreview16 Forum Resident

    Location:
    London UK
    I don’t know whether Amazon US is still selling the “correct” SH/KG 45 rpm, Pallas, stickered one, but that’s where I got mine from a while back, so that I got an authentic US (not EU) version, even though it had to cross the pond to the UK. Mind you, I still also love my original US pressing, which I bought while working in the States in ‘77, still going strong over 40 years on. A great sounding album.
     
    Greenmonster2420 likes this.
  6. WhatDoIKnow

    WhatDoIKnow I never got over it, I got used to it

    Location:
    Italy
    And here is where you could help us non-US-ians :D
    You and anyone who has bought their SH/KG copy from amazon US, if you could check on your orders archive, dig out the LP in question and copy paste the ASIN here, we might just be able to find it on a UK/EU branch of amazon.
    This isn't 100% bullet proof but usually the ASIN is the same all over.
     
  7. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Hearing In Stereo Since 1959

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    It's not necessarily just the grooves crunched together, but the speed of the groove passing by the stylus is much slower near the dead wax compared to the where the lead-in groove is. We're talking 33 1/3 revolutions per minute. That's approximately 1 revolution every 2 seconds (It's a hair more than that, but for argument's sake, let's stick with that.). It's a much longer groove in a revolution of an LP at the lead-in groove than near the dead wax, yet it still takes about 2 seconds for the stylus to travel both. It's not the mere spacing of the groove compared to the one immediately next to it, but the speed at which the groove travels by the stylus. You have the same amount of time of musical information crammed into that much shorter length of groove near the dead wax as you have at the much longer length of groove near the lead-in. So something has to give. And the cutting engineer knows (or should know) to gradually cut back on the fidelity from the beginning of the LP to the end (gradually so that it's not abrupt). LP programmers also knew to put the quieter cuts at the end of the album, which put less stress on the stylus cutting the groove.
     
    Trey A likes this.
  8. Greenmonster2420

    Greenmonster2420 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Central Ohio
    By groove spacing, I took it to mean the spacing of the modulations in the groove, which is a direct ratio to the velocity of the stylus at a given point on a side combined with the RPM of the spinning disc, as you explained. When I said “crunched grooves”, I meant the modulations within the groove, not the spacing between the grooves as they proceed through the LP.

    Unless the grooves are so close that significant pre echo is happening, there is basically 0 difference between a lone groove at the inside of an LP than a groove at the inside of an LP with grooves on either side, so long as the platter is spinning at the same speed. That’s my understanding, anyway
     
    AnalogJ likes this.
  9. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Hearing In Stereo Since 1959

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    Well, the cutting engineer can widen or narrow the groove itself at any given point to accommodate a dynamic or bass heavy passage, but yeah, I misunderstood what you were getting at. Thanks for clarifying.
     
    Greenmonster2420 likes this.
  10. Jrr

    Jrr Forum Resident

    With so many things, it’s that last 10% that can really make a difference. I really appreciate you explaining it in a way that makes it easier to understand, and not just in vague terms. I’m going to take both copies out and really spend some time listening to them, paying close attention to the details you pointed out. I think some of this is really being educated on what to listen for, once you get that close. I’ve learned an awful lot around here over the years. To think that before I joined this forum, I only had a vague notion that different pressings could sound a bit different, but that was the extent of it. It’s really amazing the knowledge you get here, and it’s really made my enjoyment of music increase ten fold! My wallet doesn’t like it much, but it’s awfully fun.
     
  11. Jrr

    Jrr Forum Resident

    Well, and you bring up another valid point I think we have to agree on. Genre of music will certainly make a difference, as someone else noted first, and of course the length of the album as it sits. I am lucky to have a DCC vinyl copy of Van Halen’s S/T gem, and I can’t imagine that possibly sounding better no matter what you do! It’s a short album, as you noted, and the mastering is impeccable. But then again, there’s only so much there anyway, compared to a demanding jazz album.
     
  12. Jrr

    Jrr Forum Resident

    Keep an eye open in the classifieds here. You should check twice daily. Check with Barnes & Noble, if they will ship to you. For some reason they pop up there and I’ve picked up a couple for forum members. I’ll see if our local store still has some. They only have the 33 but I doubt at this point you care which one you get. It’s not even expensive!
     
    WhatDoIKnow likes this.
  13. Jrr

    Jrr Forum Resident

    I’ve read they always tried to put the big hit songs, if they could predict it, as the second track. That seems to hold true when you look at track lists of many albums. Look at Rumors. Exactly laid out as you said. Dreams is track two, the very quiet Songbird closes it.
     
    WhatDoIKnow and AnalogJ like this.
  14. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Hearing In Stereo Since 1959

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    Thank you for your words. It makes the effort worth the while.
     
    WhatDoIKnow likes this.
  15. WhatDoIKnow

    WhatDoIKnow I never got over it, I got used to it

    Location:
    Italy
    Actually, B&N seem to have the version we're all eagerly looking for, but what do you know, they don't ship to Europe!
    I vaguely remember buying from B&E ages ago, must be 15 years or so, but they must have changed their policies - don't know whether it's because of covid or something else.
    So it's the classifieds, I guess...
     
  16. Rob6899

    Rob6899 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Millom, UK
    Back order it from Diverse Vinyl in Wales, I'm sure they will deliver to you.

    Rumours (2021 US 45rpm Pressing) - 100620 - Diverse Vinyl

    You will have to be patient though.
     
    WhatDoIKnow likes this.
  17. Jrr

    Jrr Forum Resident

    There is a 45 version for only $99 on our forum! Go get it…
     
  18. Jrr

    Jrr Forum Resident

    And to you too….go get the one just posted on our forum classifieds….they pressed a lot of these….you guys will get one.
     
  19. Greenmonster2420

    Greenmonster2420 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Central Ohio
    I think this is a huge part of people’s different interpretations of sound quality that doesn’t really get discussed enough around here. We all are naturally drawn to certain aspects of sound and what makes something sound “good” or “better”. But we may overlook key components that make the music sound natural and true to the recording. I remember a couple of years ago when I first bought the RKS reissue of Still Crazy After all These Years, and compared it to an original that I had. At that point I was convinced the RKS was better. Like way better. The bass was more impactful, the transients were faster and it seemed to have more detail.

    Fast forward a couple of years to when I got the One Step and compared it with the RKS and the OG. Now, my system had improved pretty considerably, so that’s definitely part of it, but my ears are also much better trained today than they were back then. I was shocked at how much worse the RKS sounded than the OG. All the detail that was in your face on the RKS was there on the OG, just much more natural, smooth, and real sounding. The RKS likely had goosed treble, making the detail more obvious, but also shifting the tonal balance and not in a good way. If you listen to Fremer's clips he posted for a blind comparison, the RKS was immediately identifiable (to me at least) by the absolutely obnoxious tambourine. I mean, it sounds really grating to me now. Mind you, I was one of the few who were able to correctly identify each version, where most folks had the one step and RKS flipped in their identification on Analog Planet, but I had the advantage of owning all three pressing and having done the same shootout a couple of days prior.

    The bass slammed harder on the RKS, but when focusing on the midrange it seems this was also due to a goose in the upper bass frequencies. Because of it, the midrange became a muddled mess compared to the OG (and the One Step). The bass was plenty impactful on my OG, at least on my current system, albeit maybe not quite as extended. But it didn’t need the bump to make the bass stand out. It created more problems than it solved.

    I left that shootout thinking that the RKS actually sounded quite bad compared to the OG, and especially to the One Step (the clear winner to my ears). And here I was for two years prior, posting several times on the forum that the RKS “smoked” the original. Talk about having egg on my face. Now, no one ever really disagreed with me or told me what to listen for to see the RKS for what is was. And my system was certainly less discerning at the time. But I am certain that had somebody pointed that out, I would have noticed it, considered it, and agreed. Because I listened to both on my office system as well after doing the shootout and the differences were still very audible, just not as distracting.

    I wish I could go back and add some sort of disclaimer to those posts saying that I wholeheartedly disagree! Oh well, live and learn.
     
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  20. Dhreview16

    Dhreview16 Forum Resident

    Location:
    London UK
    Amazon US has a copy of what seems to be the 2011 33 rpm version (it refers in the description to the 45 rpm), cheaply priced too, from a quick study.
     
  21. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    They may be somewhat inter-connected, but they are not one and the same. You can have one without the other.
     
  22. Rick360/12

    Rick360/12 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Preston, UK
    SN from Scotland seem to have the 45RPM in stock still. I bought mine there a few years ago and have bought other albums from them too so can vouch for them. Not always the fastest, but otherwise reliable. Worth a shot. Here’s a link:

    https://snvinyl.co.uk/epages/eshop943300.mobile/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/eshop943300/Products/517787-1
    :
     
    Rob6899 likes this.
  23. RemyM

    RemyM Forum Resident

    Nobody has these 45RPM in stock.
     
  24. RemyM

    RemyM Forum Resident

    It's very simple. The US 33 has pressed at Pallas on the golden sticker. The EU versions don't have that. So it's either a GOLD sticker with Pressed at Pallas or the 45RPM from AP.

     
  25. hobbes4444

    hobbes4444 Forum Addict

    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Yes. However, there are different mixes of a couple of songs on the surround mix. It is stellar. The stereo version is quite nice as well...
     
    supermd likes this.

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