DCC Archive For Steve - Stereo Remixes?

Ok, Steve, I know you've been on record a number of times speaking out about the Pet Sounds stereo mix, saying it's simply not the original. Well, I've currently got Chuck's Rock "n Roll Rarities in now - how is that any different? (for those who don't know, R&RR features a number of stereo remixes, done by Steve). Or has your stance changed over time?

I'm still waiting to hear all the Stones' Chess and RCA material in stereo!

 

True (about going to digital), but it seems that Steve has problems with the remix in general - the fact that it's "not the original".

I'm *generally* "anti-remix", but I am torn at times. Most often, of course, it's for a "never been in stereo" track. Although, sometimes I *would* like to hear "normal" stereo mixes of Rubber Soul. The problem is getting them to sound like the originals, only with a different stereo balance. It certainly won't happen with the people there now.

BTW, Steve, what do you do for echo when you remix? Ie, with the Berry tracks? I don't have the mono versions of those songs to compare, but all the stereo (probably mono too) stuff from Chess then has a *great* echo. The Stones tracks, Folk Singer, etc...

BTW, Bob Irwin has still insisted that all of PSR&T was remixed, including the title track. Hmm...

 

Luke, i'm breaking in here, off topic, and kind of rambling because I just got off a night of hard work, but aren't a lot of those Chess singles from the mid-60s mostly original stereo mixes simply folded to mono for single release? I have many examples of them. Seems like Chess was forward thinking when it camt to stereo. Hmmmm...

[ October 08, 2001: Message edited by: Grant T. ]

 

Actually, from what I've heard, that wasn't the case at all. I asked Andy McKaie at MCA why certain sessions have not shown up in stereo, and he said Ron Malo told him (before he died) that Lenoard Chess really didn't care much about stereo. If a stereo mix was done, we were kind of lucky.

Back to Steve's comments... Regarding the Chuck Berry stuff itself, I'm not too familiar with the mono mixes of those songs, but when I first put the disc in I thought "hmm, this really doesn't sound like other stereo mixes from the era." The lack of echo on the vocals struck me right away, as did the EQ - hard to describe, but it seems as if there's more midrange than what's on the mixes from the period.

I do know they used the stereo mix of You Never Can Tell on the Pulp Fiction soundtrack, and it seems as if I've heard No Particular Place To Go in stereo more often than not.

As for remixes getting close to the originals - I'm still very impressed with the Byrds remixes. Excellent job there.

 

Ah, that's a touchy area. I've heard stereo mixes of Lps that weren't released in Stereo originally (I think Aretha's "I Never Loved A Man" was in mono @ Atlantic, the new reissue has stereo on the 4Men w/beards vinyl) and I think it really has to do with the format you're releasing it on, if you HAVE the permission to use both mixes, and if the sound is tried and true as is on the opposite mix. I've heard some late 60's records like the Beatles White Album, it should be mainly represented in Stereo, but the Mono has it's neat differences too!

Chuck Berry, we have this Army supply store and I know this older guy who fixes Ol' Seaburg L-100 type jukeboxes. He 1/2 donated a Seaburg to this store, and it's still 3 plays for a buck. Collectors records and the old Eric Records reissue 45's fortify the unit. Since the jukebox is a midrange-tube-ampd-ballsy performer (and mono) I played Maybelline and a Spinners stereo 45. I was shocked at the great sound that jukebox had playing that POS Eric 45. You could totally relate to kids in the 50's getting up to dance in the malt shop, because the sound was THAT good, no lie. Counter help thought I was nuts sitting there watching it spin... Nice toy!

Yes, I agree with Diana. However, if the opportunity presents itself, the opposite mix to the most popular mix, (Be in Mono or Stereo) is a real treat.

I love the Capitol remix of Pet Sounds to Stereo, but in order for one to really appreciate the magic and deddend, natural sound, it must be the MONO. It's like "getting a joke" the 1st time it's told to you. When you listen to the Mono mix properly, you totally "get" what they were working so hard for.

But throw away the Stereo? Naah. There's room in this one horse town for both, patnah! Hopefully others can make it happen!

 

Eh, to the best of my knowledge, that one's always been stereo. Rhino used the mono for their CD, but... The MoFi CD is stereo, in particular.

 

Echoing what has been said already - if you haven't heard Chuck Berry' soriginal Chess 45s you are missing a treat.

The MCA Chess Box sets did a great job of reproducing these masters, it is true, but there's something about that blue label . . . .

-j

 

For Steve Hoffman. Steve, believe me when I tell you, I respect your opinion, and I love your work. That being said, I read your message where you mentioned that you had never heard a remix that had the "power" and punch of the original mixes.
Well, I really have to disagree with you for a number of reasons. First off, there are so many stereo mixes out there that were done in about 10 seconds, just for the sales dept to have something else to sell. Those mixes shouldnt really be considered "sacred", should they? Some of the Gary Lewis stereo Lps are a joke....the 2 track balance is so way off its unlistenable. On something like that , a remix makes the track enjoyable the way it WAS supposed to be.
Secondly, if you want a few examples of remixes that simply BLOW AWAY the original mix, try this: Put on an original LP of The Fantastic Baggys (on Liberty). Then put on the Legendary Masters remix. There is No comparison at all!! The Lp is weak, drowned in hiss, and is compressed to the point of insanity. On the Remix, the sound literally jumps out of the speakers...Hal Blaines drumming like its in your bedroom. In fact, There are several in that series that really do blow away the originals. Ever heard The Crickets Legendary Masters Cd? The sound is so good, you will think you are in the studio. Really, I'm not kidding. when I first played it, Jerry Allison asks the producer a question. I actually turned around to see where he was!!
Also The Honeys Cd is simply stunning.....after the pukey mono mixes with all the compression, the LM Cd was a revelation.
I guess what Im saying this.....you are 100% right when you say that some people slaved over the mono mix, Like Brian Wilson. Then again, some, didnt. Some were only motivated to make a quick mix and didnt really care that much. I mean, who would allow "Angel Baby" to be pressed with that painfully out of tune sax solo? That was someone who wasnt much of perfectionist.
Certainly, many of the stereo mixes from the 60s were an afterthought, and in those cases, remixing DOES allow us to hear what the artist and producer intended.
I would dearly LOVE to hear you remix some of those Gary Lewis and Del Shannon Lps from the 4 tracks with your tube Ampex 300...I know how great they would sound.
All the best,
Mikey

 

Er...no Pepper is a straight remaster - nothing was remixed. In fact, in an interview prior to the release of Pepper, Martin specifically stated that he wouldn't even think of remixing Pepper.

So, no, nothing was remixed except the Help and Rubber Soul discs...

In response to Mikey, a BIG problem I have with Ron Furmanek's work (he was in charge of most of the discs you mention) is his lack of appreciation for the *sound* of the original mixes, in particular the echo. And it's not that he simply overlooked that aspect - he didn't like the original echo on a lot of things and specifically went out to change that sound. If that's not "playing god", I don't know what is...

Steve, have you heard the more recent stereo mix of Mr. Tambourine Man? It actually sounds like a '60s mix, hard stereo panning and all. For some reason most or all of the mixes from the Never Before disc (which is where the bad version of MTM came from) have very indistinct stereo imaging - everything is a "wash"...

But, yeah, while I wouldn't pick them to master stuff, I do think the team of Bob Irwin/Vic Anesini (I think I screwed that one up) is great when it comes to remixes. Like Bob said about the S&G box, he had no intention of changing or "improving" anything with the remixes, but rather simply doing what they did back then.

 

No, Pepper is a straigt remaster, NO doubt about it. Besides the obvious reasons (it just *sounds* like the original mix), the hiss levels don't really change like you say. Good Morning Good Morning has just as much hiss as Lovely Rita (which isn't much, BTW).

No, that's the original mix, all the way though. Sgt. Pepper sounds just like the vinyl (any EQ differences aside), while Help and Rubber Soul both sound different. Plus, there's the fact that Revolver wasn't remixed either - why would they remix Pepper and not Revolver?

Pepper was mastered from a *copy* of the stereo master. Simple as that.

 

Blech. I'm *very* glad they didn't do that. For all of the hype about Anthology, those mixes sound nothing like the originals. So much for "restoring" the echo chamber...

Here's the Martin interview:

---

ALLAN KOZINN: Back to the CD remixes. You've done the next three; will "Sgt. Pepper" then be the original mix?

GEORGE MARTIN: I'm certain it will be, and I'm certain that from then on all the mixes will be the originals, except that I don't want them to go out unadulterated. I think the EQs on the CDs may be wrong, so I'd like to look at them and see that they are not quite as strident, or coarse as they might be.

ALLAN KOZINN: What are the possibilities of a mono "Pepper" and a mono "White Album" coming out on CD?

GEORGE MARTIN: Highly unlikely I'd think. Why, do you like the mono albums?

ALLAN KOZINN: Well, yes, but it's not a matter of preference, necessarily. It's just that there are some interesting differences. John's vocal on "Lucy in the Sky," for instance, has that nice echoey phase-shifted sound that's perfect for the song. "She's Leaving Home" is sped up a bit, and doesn't drag as much in mono as in stereo. And in the intro to the "Sgt. Pepper" Reprise, there's an extra bar of drum beats.

GEORGE MARTIN: Ah yes. That was probably cut out to make it tighter. (rest of passage cut)

---

I believe it was also Allan that told me that Pepper was cut from a copy tape, and that the master could not be located for the CD.

 

AFAIK, Pepper's MONO master was next-gen from the multi, used at the EMI cutting room facilities for the Mono Parlaphone in 1967. It was never used again, supposedly. The stereo copy has always been 2nd gen from the multi's, or further, depending on origin, pressing, format...Don't let it spoil the music for you.

 

No, Sckott, for the CD they actually couldn't find the master - ie, *the* master. So, rather than being 1st/2nd generation (2nd on the crossfaded songs), it's 2nd/3rd....

 

Ah, yes that would make sense.

 

...If you're talking about the 50s and early 60s...

Well then, they got lucky a lot in the mid- 60s! Maybe all the stereo has to do with the Charles Stepney era. I understand a lot of Chess mono mixes from this period were thrown out in the seventies.

 

Yeah, I was mainly talking about the late 50s/early 60s. Andy told me that if a track wasn't recorded specifically for an album, it's a crap shoot as to if stereo mixes were done.

There's also the issue of "running masters" (I believe that's what Andy called them). Along with the 4-track machine, I guess Chess had another stereo machine running in parallel. Sometimes these tapes are indeed stereo, but sometimes that "live mix" is mono. Which is why some outtakes are mono, while others are stereo.

*Some* multitracks still exist for songs not originally mixed to stereo, but there's the issue of matching the originals, along with the fact that MCA doesn't feel it's financially worth it to remix much of that stuff. Bill Inglot has remixed a number of Chess tracks (often to remove horns that were overdubbed), and they just don't sound like the originals...

 

Also, Arethe Franklin's "I Never Loved A Man The Way that I loved You" was released in mono first. The stereo followed very soon afterward.

I believe Rhino's decision to release the mono version was not just because the soiund was superior but also because the mixes on the mono LP were the same as the singles. The stereo mixes of the singles were added as a bonus for those who prefer them.

As for stereo remixes, I always prefer the originals. I regard the mono mixes as the standard no matter how bad they may sound. Steve is right, it would be a tragedy if they fade away because they are historical documents.

There are groups of stereo fanatics that would love to revise history.

 

The Stones sounded great at Chess, but the engineers seemed to stear twords the dirt that made the sound unmistakeable. That's the real deal. Bo Diddley knocks me out even with modern equipment.