Forgive me Father.. aka confession of audio heretic..

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by -Sphinx-, Oct 5, 2021.

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  1. Spy Car

    Spy Car Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Speaking of the Grateful Dead and speaking of the Concertgebouw in Amsterdam, the band (as many here are not doubt aware) played in this beautiful, historic, acoustically acclaimed theatre on May 10, 1972 as one of the stops on the Europe '72 tour.

    Would have loved to have gone to that show.

    Have the recording, but....

    Bill
     
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  2. King Crimson also played an amazing show there in '73.
     
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  3. Tone?

    Tone? Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    ive played some outdoor venues.
    The sound most of the times sucks. And if it doesn’t it’s not as good as indoor.

    yeah its my opinion. Not fact.
    You have your opinion and that’s fine.

    cheers
     
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  4. bever70

    bever70 Let No-one Live Rent Free in Your Head!

    Location:
    Belgium
    Nah, they just 'scream'! Hate the screamy types, unless they are in a metal band :D.
     
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  5. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member


    I will say, I think you've misunderstood the old audiophile reference of the sound of unamplified acoustic instruments recorded in real space, not isolation.

    The reason that was long an audiophile reference was the theory that a listener knows what a violin playing in a concert hall sounds like and can judge how accurately a system reproduces that better than trying to judge accuracy with a studio manipulated recording, because, with so much processing -- multi micing, pan potting, reverb, compression, eq, maybe other effects -- it is impossible for the listener who wasn't in the room at the time of the recording to know what the instrument is supposed to sound like, so you can't tell as easily if your system is accurate. That was the reason the standard became live, unamplified music, played in real space, recording in a way to capture that space (and typically, ideally, with minimal micing).

    I'm not sure it was ever really an ideal standard -- halls sound different, mics sound different, different violins and pianos from different manufacturers and eras sound different. And most of all, even a minimally miced orchestral recording with like a spaced pair or spaced trio of mics, is going to have mics in positions in the hall that no listeners ever are in an is going to sound very different from the live sound in terms of high frequency energy, instrumental separation, left-right width, etc. But the standard was about having something where it's easier to judge fidelity just on the basis of listening to a recording, not bench tests, and having a standard, relatively unprocessed recording of a real experience, and the knowledge of the sound of that real experience to compare it to.

    Nowadays, all of that's pretty much out the window. "Audiophiles" don't much care about fidelity to the source recording at all any more, it's just about what equipment they personally like the sound of that they care about. In fact, many chase all kinds of crazy, colored, inaccurate sounding equipment. They use all kinds of highly processed, pan potted stereo, iso recorded (or even in the box recorded), recordings as their "reference." And many of them wouldn't know what the sound of an unamplified acoustic music performance in a concert hall designed for that sounded like if it hit them in the face anyway. I'm not sure this is what they meant with the song, but for me that line from U2 really capture our modern cultural love of ersatz experience -- "even better than the real thing."
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2021
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  6. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    Aretha Franklin did not "just scream" any more than, say Luciano Pavorotti "just bellowed." Sheesh, I know we all have different tastes in music. but seesh, one hopes that people can recognize artistry, craft and ability within the context of one or another particular genre and style and mode of performance, regardless of whether or not that particular mode or style is their particular bag.
     
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  7. Tim Irvine

    Tim Irvine Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin, Texas
    Fun thread. The experiences, regardless of the type of venue, are completely different, much as going to a football game and watching one on television are completely different. I enjoy both but often for specific and different reasons. I also think that artistic intentions are often quite different. Classical recordings for smaller works are often set up very carefully in a studio with a focus on producing a recording, and when they release the record you would assume it accomplished what they set out to accomplish. Large scale orchestral works tend to be performed in large performance venues and are recorded with varying degrees of success. I doubt the conductor is focusing intently during the performance on the mics. He or she is focused on nailing that performance for the delight of the audience and the participating musicians. Now and then, especially when a soloist is present, a performance captures something unique and astounding. The recording may or may not capture it well, but being there for Horowitz' 1953 performance of Rach's 3rd or hearing the recording are very different things and no music lover would choose the record over good seats. However, for most solid but not truly exceptional recordings, I never say as a listener, "Oh, to have been in Austin for that performance of Peer Gynt." I am quite glad to hear it in comfort, maybe even with a cuppa or a stronger potable. Hearing a known legend live, even if they are playing a routine performance, is still special and can be memorable, but when I am honest about the memory it is rarely focused on small sonic details when the performance was large scale.

    On the subject of seating, for a Mahler symphony I would prefer to be another 10m back. For a great pianist, if I am close enough and on the correct side to witness details, I am likely too low in most symphony halls, to hear it optimally, but if I am at a table in a jazz club ten feet from the open side of the piano for someone really good, wow.

    Bottom line for me is that I love both experiences but often prefer the recorded version because it captured an extraordinary performance, and going to a live show near the end of someone's exhausting tour is often solid but not spectacular.
     
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  8. JackG

    JackG Forum Resident

    Location:
    NJ
    I saw lots of shows at Terra Blues (Grant Green Jr. used to play a lot) going back a while and when the room is small enough you don't need mics for the drums or bass rig, that immediacy and slam can't be replicated.
     
  9. bever70

    bever70 Let No-one Live Rent Free in Your Head!

    Location:
    Belgium
    :D I knew someone would get on their high horse :laugh:. Just to be clear, I have nothing but respect for Aretha & Janis!

    Love me some Sabina Classen (Holy Moses) next to Diana Krall! Variety IS the spice of life.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2021
  10. Encore

    Encore Forum Resident

    Fun topic :laugh: It touches on something I think we can all relate to, i.e. crappy sound in venues and feeling slightly guilty for not being blown away by the live sound, which is supposed to be superior. Some of it has to do with real instruments often sounding rougher than on recordings, also for classical music. Another part has to do with the sound of the halls.

    I have to say I'm surprised that the OP feels the sound in the Concertgebouw is less than stellar, though. Not that I have been there, but still--based on its reputation, this is strange ... Here in Copenhagen, we sadly got a new concert hall for the national broadcasting orchestra some years ago, and I hate just about everything about that hall. The aesthetics, the atmosphere, the logistics, and the sound. Advice: Never hire Jean Nouvel as an architect for anything, not even a garden shed. I still enjoy going to concerts there but the thin sound of the new hall definitely detracts from the experience compared to halls with better sound.

    And as others have said, the sound at concerts with amplified music is hit or miss and mostly too loud, so I also wear ear plugs. More so than with classical concerts, it's more about the atmosphere and being there. Today, I'm still on an emotional high following a concert with Faroese singer Eivør yesterday. A fantastic experience! The sound was indeed too loud and nowhere as good as on her fantastic live album Live in Thorshavn but, man, what an artist. Check it out.
    [​IMG]
     
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  11. The Pinhead

    The Pinhead KING OF BOOM AND SIZZLE IN HELL

    Of course I prefer the sound of my rig; I can tweak it ! I have a history of pestering sound guys with strong-worded suggestions and remarks whenever there was access to the sound booth. The sound is rarely spot on anywhere I went. You are so forgiven, my son. BTW; I'm The Pinhead, not the bearded dude in white robes.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2021
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  12. The Pinhead

    The Pinhead KING OF BOOM AND SIZZLE IN HELL

    This upcoming Friday 17th, I'll have to attend my 2d nephew's live gig with his new band. The style is metallic crust with Amebix/Gallhammer/Biohazard/90's Discharge influence. A YouTube clip of the debut gig linked if you want to bother . Incredible how good the sound is for a cellphone. With headphone, it fooled me into thinking it was an on-the-fly, rough mix from the mixing desk :



    He's the bassist, and, of course, my silicone earplugs are at the ready.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2021
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  13. addicted2

    addicted2 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    north east USA
    i dont agree with everything he says but i've learned a thing or two from him. I understand he does these vids to create brand awareness for his company but he does leave a few good nuggets here and there. Some New info to me which has helped me progress in the hobby. None of it may be useful to you if you have a lot more experience of course.
     
  14. The Pinhead

    The Pinhead KING OF BOOM AND SIZZLE IN HELL

    Although I think mostly the same about him, I keep finding myself watching his YT vids very often. They're interesting in a way.
     
  15. Oscillation

    Oscillation Maybe it was the doses?

    I mean I watch him too, and he has introduced me to some interesting concepts I hadn't considered or formalized a consideration of. But the last 2 videos I saw him doing, this one and another basically snidely berating a monetary competitor, well it just makes me MAD!
     
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  16. Boltman92124

    Boltman92124 Go Padres!!

    Location:
    San Diego
    I've got the Europe 72 complete collection. Maybe that's my next listen!!
     
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  17. Ilusndweller

    Ilusndweller S.H.M.F.=>Reely kewl.

    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    Getting a great recording of a (the more popular the band/crowded the show the harder it is to walk out with a gem of a recording) concert with a pair of mics is anything but easy and for numerous and varied reasons. Of over 500 masters, I consider about 5 of them to be "gems"(Ive got some gems of less popular bands where I could set up wherever/however, mix a pair of mics with a L&R soundboard feed, mix 4 mics, etc, but woohoo as most people havent even heard of these bands and they let me set up wherever I wanted to since the show wasnt crowded). If a good sounding venue (indoors or outdoors) let me set up two spread omnidirectional mics (or something like a Soundfield AMS-ST250 run in Blumlein mode like was used to record Cowboy Junkies "The Trinity Session") wherever I wanted to in a venue I was familiar with, Im confident I could make a great sounding live recording and better than whatever high dollar overproduced live album that sounds like crap and not like you are there at the concert. The problem is that with larger bands at larger venues it is extremely rare to have this opportunity. And bands that allow taping usually have a tapers section near the back where it sounds like azz. But there are a zillion other reasons as well why most live recordings are "nothing special" except to maybe those who were at the show and want to "relive the experience". Some include venue sounds like crap to begin with (too many to list), not a great performance by the band, nearby screamers (in the case of tapers who spend big bucks on great seats (plural to have "screamer buffers") or mail order multiple tickets in hopes of getting 1 good seat, selling the rest then sneak in >10k worth of gear to that spot, etcetcetc. Taping concerts was largely my life for 7 years(95-01). My goal was to walk out of every concert I went to with the best recording. Not easy to get a "gem", they are few and far between.

    For someone listening to a concert recorded with a pair of mics in their listening room, I feel there is exactly 1 very precise location for the left mic and 1 very specific location for the right mic. So basically every single 2 channel microphone recording is a compromise IMHO.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2021
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  18. The Pinhead

    The Pinhead KING OF BOOM AND SIZZLE IN HELL

    Yeah he does that. I wouldn't buy anything PS Audio, except for the new speakers, and provided I could afford it (ain't gonna happen)
     
  19. Spy Car

    Spy Car Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Forgive the personal anecdote, but this post reminds me of one of the stranger memories in my concert going experience.

    In late 2002 Marianne Faithfull (who both my wife and I had long adored) played Royce Hall at UCLA.

    Royce Hall is a lovely and gracious brick gothic style hall and since it was retrofitted in the 1980s it has pretty good acoustics. Very nice place to see a concert.

    We had great seats. Maybe 4 or 5 rows back on the left aisle. As luck would have it Marianne Faithfull took her stage position right in front of us. My wife was beside herself. This was seeing a legend.

    Faithfull opened with the old Herman's Hermits song I'm Into Something Good. But the mix was a mess. We could hear more from her directly than out of the PAs. I was calm and thought they'll get it dialed in quickly. Nope.

    There was fiddling going in back at the mixing board, but the situation was not improving. Murmuring started in the crowd. Mind you, this was in a genteel theatre with a polite audience, not some raunchy club. But the mix was bad. Really bad.

    Finally my wife--who is a nice as can be--seemed to be getting upset. I had to do something. I said, "I'll be right back" and she looked a little worried that I was going to explode on someone. LOL.

    I marched to the back of the small hall not a bit happy about the audio disaster that was unfolding, when I found this kid at the console who looked panic stricken. I'm guessing he was someone's student assistant and the mixer didn't show, but who knows?

    On a dime my mood swung into "nice Bill mode," and I said, "let me help you." I didn't touch the board, but did direct the kid to bring up Marianne's mike, take down the bass, etc. In a couple minutes we had it sounding just fine. The kid thanked me and we shared thumbs ups.

    When I got back to my seat, my wife mouths, "sounds good, what happened?" to which I mouthed back, "I'll tell you later." LOL.

    It was a weird moment, but definitely saved the show.

    Marianne Faithfull was terrific. And most importantly, my wife was happy.

    Sometimes one has to do what one has to do.

    Bill
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2021
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  20. Ilusndweller

    Ilusndweller S.H.M.F.=>Reely kewl.

    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    :edthumbs: Some soundguys are better than others. Usually if a venue has their own soundguy, the sound is pretty good bc they are familiar with soundboard settings that work well in the venue for various types of music.
     
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  21. Boltman92124

    Boltman92124 Go Padres!!

    Location:
    San Diego
    Great story!!
     
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  22. Spy Car

    Spy Car Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    We saw tons of shows at Royce Hall in those days. My wife was both a UCLA student and a university employee and she was able to get great tickets cheaply. Those shows always sounded great--save this one time.

    I never got the full story, but I can only assume that the in-house sound person didn't show up and this poor kid was pressed into service.

    I used to do a little field recording of concerts myself (only with authorization) and one of the places I recorded was in this same Royce Hall. A fantastic group from Palestine/Israel called Sabreen.

    I always used X-Y coincident pairs of Schoeps with hypercardioid capsules fed into an early portable digital front end called a Sony PCM F1 that then recorded the digital bits as "video" on a matching Betamax recorder. Both units could run on NP1 batteries.

    Bill
     
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  23. -Sphinx-

    -Sphinx- OM - Ordinary Man Thread Starter

    Location:
    The Netherlands
    I think you don't get it - it's all about home systems (not real instruments) sounding better than real instruments :cool:

    Maybe you (and others) simply smoke less at home than on their gigs..

    Crucial in case of every music and every hall, I'm not always serious but this time I am :cool:

    [​IMG]

    Huge fan of Siltech silver here, my interconnect original price is much more than what my car is worth at the moment. I regret I couldn't afford their silver speaker cables (using silver-copper hybrid cables) but I somehow didn't feel like living in the street..


    Gotta stop here, apologies to all who have posted here interesting stuff and to whom I haven't managed to reply yet...



    ;)

     
  24. -Sphinx-

    -Sphinx- OM - Ordinary Man Thread Starter

    Location:
    The Netherlands
    Ps. Do you guys think these are funny.? :winkgrin:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  25. Ilusndweller

    Ilusndweller S.H.M.F.=>Reely kewl.

    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    One of my gems was Phish UCLA Pauley Pavillion 12-1-96. I mail ordered to about 5 or 6 addresses and got one set of schveeet seats(Bass mod Oktava MC-012 card caps in cat in hat hat>PSC phantom only boxes>Sony TCD-D7. Ive taped at Royce Hall as well, David Grisman "Songs of our Fathers", Dec 96. I was front row center balcony for that. My final setup was Schoeps CMXY-4V (vertical cardioid caps in "X-Y coincident arrangement)>Grace Designs Lunatec V2> either line in to Tascam DA-P1 DAT or into Sony SBM-1 ADC. My first setup was Rat Shack #33-3007 mics (their TOTL mic from the mid 90s made by Shure and powered by a AA battery)>Sony TCD-D7 DAT. Interestingly enough, 2 of my "gems" were recorded with this basic setup, Ben Harper 5-17-97 at UCSB and Burning Spear 8-18-96 at the Galaxy Theatre in Santa Ana(both mics in hat).

    I stumbled upon a song from 5-17-97 about 6 months ago, the first song here. Sound at venue was poor and it was windy(forgot windscreens), but this is as raw as Ben Harper gets and I will put this recording up against any Ben Harper audience recording.

     
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