Frank Sinatra's Capitol and Reprise recordings now under one roof

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Bob F, Oct 30, 2013.

  1. rangerjohn

    rangerjohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    chicago, il
    Thanks Matt. It seems especially crucial on Moonlight to maintain the contrast between quiet and loud moments in Riddle's amazingly subtle arrangements. A missed opportunity then.
     
  2. aoxomoxoa

    aoxomoxoa Play that fast thing one more time

    Location:
    Dayton Ohio
    Now, the new MOONLIGHT SINATRA LP is better than the download, right? Please tell me it is, or else I wasted $15 (it's on the way).
     
  3. paulmock

    paulmock Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    Don't let anyone here feed you what is better or worse. You need to make these decisions on your own. You need to be your own man on these things.
     
  4. Pants Party

    Pants Party One Leg At A Time

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    I actually liked the download of Moonlight Sinatra. It's different -- like a different mix. I wasn't sure at first, but I like it. Don't know about the vinyl.
     
    MarkusGermany likes this.
  5. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member Thread Starter

  6. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    That's why I typically make clips available. Any Bozo -- and I include myself in the Bozo collective -- can spew an opinion about how something sounds. Not everything about a release can be conveyed via a 30-second clip, admittedly, but many things can be. The clips in post 930 at least give somebody SOME ammo from which to make a decision.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2014
    rangerjohn and Simon A like this.
  7. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    One more thing: I don't think that any of these new releases are ones where any of us -- including me -- would put them on and get stricken with some disease or something. I can easily, I'm sure, put on the new Moonlight Sinatra, in either format, and sit and listen to it and completely enjoy it on its own terms. (I even enjoy the mono Come Fly with Me, despite my reservations about the mix.) That being the case, I would say: Buy and enjoy! However, when somebody wonders how one release COMPARES to other masterings, the only way to give anything close to a legitimate, non-bull**** answer is to actually listen to them side by side in quick succession, where differences that may not be bothersome in regular listening will start to become apparent. Sometimes the differences are like night and day, sometimes they are subtle, sometimes they are essentially non-existant. In those latter cases, listening to bits and pieces is often NOT the way to go. Sometimes it's necessary to really "absorb" a release over a period of time -- but often not. @Vidiot posts occasionally at how utterly faulty our "audio memory" is, even on the very short term, and I agree with him. There are times when I will compare different versions on the same day and reach one conclusion, then I'll actually listen to passages from different releases in quick succession (maybe side-by-side in ProTools or something, or back-to-back play-throughs on the turntable) and realize that what I heard after listening a few hours apart, even, was just plain wrong.

    In the end, though, as @paulmock intimates, it's all about what YOU like, or, perhaps more accurately, what you are "okay with," and he's spot on. (I've been guilty of saying that such-and-such version is pretty good, when the truth was, I didn't have a clue what I was talking about because I had not HEARD other, superior versions, and once I heard those, I realized that what I had once recommended was actually pretty poopy.) It's like: What makes a good movie? I remember when my wife and I were first dating, and I asked her what she likes in a movie, and she gave a one-word answer: Explosions! That being the case, when I go see 2001: A Space Odyssey in the theatre, I don't typically bring Jessica with me. I know I'm seeing a fantastic movie for the umpteenth time in 70mm, and she knows she's avoiding being bored stiff. Fair enough!
     
  8. paulmock

    paulmock Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    I will always go back to how Matt said for quite some time that he did not care too much for the MoFi SFSL from the Silver Box. Years later he revisited the LP and changed his opinion of it quite positively. These reviews of all of these recordings is indeed an ongoing and ever flowing situation.

    "What rings a bell with you don't necessarily ring a bell with me..." from the song "Individual Thing"
     
  9. AJH

    AJH Senior Member

    Location:
    PA Northern Tier

    I have a friend who once recommended that I had to get a certain very expensive silver interconnect set for my audio system. He said my system would sound 500% better once I placed these interconnects into my rig. I had another friend (since passed away) who owned a high-end audio store, and he let me borrow these interconnect cables for several weeks. Once I placed them in my system, I couldn’t get over how God awful my system sounded- I just hated the cables. This didn’t mean that the person who recommended the cables was wrong, it just meant that I didn’t like the “sound” of the silver cables, and he did. The reality is that it is my system, and I’m the one who gets to determine what I like, and what my system ultimately “sounds” like.

    The same is true when I (or Matt who is much more able to technically express suspected defects), state that a specific mastering sounds less than ideal. Experience has taught us that a newer offering of an album doesn’t necessarily mean it has to be better than what has already been released. For me, when engineers start to use excessive digital manipulation or suspect EQ, it takes the listener further away from the original performance and thus subtracts from what was originally recorded- this is an opinion and a philosophical position, not some absolute truth.

    It does not mean that this more “modern” style of engineering is absolutely “wrong” and that there can’t be people who like and enjoy it. Personally, I even like one of Bob Norberg’s Sinatra offerings better than Larry Walsh’s version of the same album. In the end, it’s all about what sounds better to you- the listener.

    Obviously, I am not a fan of the recent “Moonlight Sinatra” HR download, but it doesn’t mean someone can thoroughly enjoy it and/or like it better than an older version of the album (be it CD or LP). If you like it, listen to it, and enjoy it.

    AJH
     
    MLutthans, wvk3, MMM and 3 others like this.
  10. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    COME DANCE WITH ME?
     
    mikrt17 likes this.
  11. wvk3

    wvk3 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Love these conversations -- that's why we're here, right?

    I still like the Moonlight download, but I do appreciate the comparisons Matt makes. Time will tell, I suppose. And, of course, it's not like I threw out the suitcase. :)
     
    Simon A likes this.
  12. AJH

    AJH Senior Member

    Location:
    PA Northern Tier
    Yes, and also think he did the best job with the vocal track on "River, Stay Away From My Door" on "Come Swing With Me."
     
  13. aoxomoxoa

    aoxomoxoa Play that fast thing one more time

    Location:
    Dayton Ohio
    Well my package arrived today with 3 of the new LPs. Can't wait to get a couple hours tonight to sit down with them.
     
    bozburn and Simon A like this.
  14. Simon A

    Simon A Arrr!

    and a drink of course... :winkgrin:
     
  15. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Aside from Moonlight Sinatra, which ones did you purchase?
     
  16. bferr1

    bferr1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    MA
    Elusive Disc email received today says ITWSH, Jolly Christmas and Moonlight Sinatra LPs are in-stock and ready for shipping.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2014
    Simon A likes this.
  17. colormesinatra

    colormesinatra Forum Resident

    Location:
    Malverne, NY
    Earlier today I listened to the new HDTracks version of Swingin' Brass straight through and it sounds much, much better than any previous CD version I've listened to in the past.

    I also just finished Side 1 of Moonlight Sinatra. Truth be told, I've never really listened to the album before even though I own an original LP.

    To my ears, the LP isn't that great sonically, feels flat to me. Not much room to breath. It's an American pressing:

    In the deadwax, Side 1: 30521 FS1018A 1D
    Side 2: 30522 FS1018B 1C

    -Robert
     
  18. bozburn

    bozburn Forum Resident

    Location:
    Rome, GA, US
    The original Stereo LP is the only form I've ever listened to Moonlight. Now I really want to track down a CD copy.
     
  19. aoxomoxoa

    aoxomoxoa Play that fast thing one more time

    Location:
    Dayton Ohio
    Moonlight, Brass & Wee Small Hours.
    I decided I have enough copies of Come Fly With Me.
    Funny thing is, I just bought several grey label originals that I haven't listened to yet. My Sinatra collection is getting out of hand. There may be a big Sinatra sale coming up in the classifieds!
     
    MarkusGermany, DLant and Simon A like this.
  20. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    @aoxomoxoa -

    Very curious to hear your impressions, once you find the time.
     
    aoxomoxoa likes this.
  21. aoxomoxoa

    aoxomoxoa Play that fast thing one more time

    Location:
    Dayton Ohio
    I am spinning Moonlight Sinatra now. Tonally it is very nice. The vocal seem more upfront than I recall, but I only have a mono copy of this album and I hardly ever listen to the Suitcase box (I kinda look at it as a reference tool). I can only compare my Apples to Oranges, but it sounds nice. It does lack that midrange magic that my mono copy has. But it makes up in clarity.
    I find the mastering to be good, and the vinyl quiet and flat (sticker with "Made in Netherlands" on back). Quite crankable while listening to my Sennheisers.
    And the great thing is, I really like this album. Plus, I haven't overplayed it to death like the Capitol albums.
    There are some really wonderful songs here. "Reaching For The Moon" is just lovely. "Oh You Crazy Moon" might well be one of my favorite all time Sinatra tracks. I think this copy will get lots of rotation at my place.
    Ok my only real complaint is the obnoxious catalog number. What the hell were they thinking?
     
    rangerjohn and MLutthans like this.
  22. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    I've had that happen countless times, to the point where I'm convinced our mood, whether or not we had any sleep, when was our last meal, how stressed-out we are, whether we're happy or sad... all of these outside factors have a far greater effect on what we hear than anything else. Certainly more than cables and all that.

    In a few cases, I knew a recording sounded different from another, but then when I directly A/B'd them in Pro Tools or another similar program I realized that one wasn't necessarily better or worse... merely different. It's like comparing two pieces of steak from two different restaurants: maybe the seasoning is slightly different, maybe one is a tiny bit on the rare side than the other, but they're both edible, both good meals, neither massively better than the other. Just different.

    Gross problems, I can certainly tell. On the other hand, I know of some CD reissues where the producers had to resort to vinyl dubs for certain tracks, and when they're from very clean pressings, it still sounds fine to me. Can't tell it's not from tape unless or until a new release comes out from tape.
     
  23. aoxomoxoa

    aoxomoxoa Play that fast thing one more time

    Location:
    Dayton Ohio
    Ok, now as I listen to "Swingin' Brass" I am not quite as pleased. They have sucked the midrange right out of this one. "I'm Beginning To See The Light" sounds downright bizarre. This LP seems to be a bit bass heavy too. Now mind you, this is just a first impression, and I did no side by side comparisons. My new copy of Swingin' Brass is also a tiny bit warped, which I have noticed happens sometimes for some reason with these newer gatefold covers. Not sure why.

    At any rate, I am torn between this and my late 70's pressing. I wish I could take the best of both worlds and blend them. The dreamy mids of the earlier pressing with the bottom end and clarity of the newer version.

    By the way, as I suspected, these first two that I have heard have that "digital sound" that I am not crazy about. This is more apparent to me on "Swingin Brass".

    On to "In The Wee Small Hours"....

    I am glad to own a new copy since most original grey label copies have surface noise. Well what do you know? This one does too. A little crackle at the beginning of side one (a some light noise throughout). :(
    Nothing horrible and maybe I can clean it so I won't dispair yet.
    Now the sound on this record is great. This sounds better to me than my N cut mono or MFSL. Plus it has a warm analogue sound.
    I am very pleased, so I guess I will have to pick up "Come Fly With Me" & "Jolly Xmas".

    What other releases are slated? Did I miss that?
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2014
    Simon A likes this.
  24. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    The MFSL, of course, is cut from a whack-o tape, but the comparison to the N cut is encouraging!

    Thanks for the reports on all the albums!

    I've got a few LP copies of Swingin' Brass, and they all sound far out in one sense or another. (Wasn't that one of the handful of albums that was recorded with AME equalization, as opposed to NAB???) Not surprised to hear that this may be just another flavor of weird!
     
    Simon A and aoxomoxoa like this.
  25. aoxomoxoa

    aoxomoxoa Play that fast thing one more time

    Location:
    Dayton Ohio
    I should add that these are off the cuff comparisons, and I am going by memory, which has been known to play tricks.
     
    Simon A and MLutthans like this.

Share This Page

molar-endocrine