Gary duncan of quicksilver messenger service RIP

I meant "Six String Voodoo". It's been a day, as they say.

 

Sorry but I like seven string voodoo way better.

 

Cipollina does lead vocals on 3 Or 4 Feet From Home.

I love Shady Grove by the way, and for me, there's no such thing as "too much Nicky". I love that Hopkins came in and made Shady Grove sound like an English progressive album instead of a West Coast progressive one.

 

Gary Duncan, Psychedelic Rocker In San Francisco Heyday, Dies at 72

I think Duncan would be pleased that the New York Times printed an obituary for him. I remember when I first met him in the mid-80s that he was saying he wanted to be remembered, he wanted to make his mark, to achieve something. I told him he'd already done that, but he didn't sound entirely certain. I think that was a little keyhole into Duncan's psyche -- he usually wasn't the type to betray any insecurities... if anything, he was the complete opposite!

I knew Duncan and Cipollina both, and I would say that they were both nice guys, but completely DIFFERENT types of nice guys. Unfortunately, I never got to see the two of them play together. Both brilliant guitarists too (although I'd say Cipollina was the better of the two).

ASAIC, Cipollina and Duncan were the two best guitarists on the SF scene.

(one thing Duncan would NOT have been pleased about was that the New York Times was using a photo of the Shady Grove line-up of Quicksilver in their on-line obit, identifying Cipollina as Duncan, until someone pointed out the error.)

 

The Times did take a couple of day to get around to that obit, but I am glad they did.

Thanks for the post, ground.

I've been listening to the first two Quicksilver albums a good deal the last few days. Great music. I need to get back to some of their other recordings that have Gary on them like the other live stuff.

 

A recording OUTSIDE of Quicksilver that features Duncan is the David Freiberg tune on the first Grace Slick solo album. Duncan told me he got a call to come down to the studio to see if he could put down a guitar solo, so he did. He said that after he'd played the solo, he was really proud of it, because he'd made a mistake, some kind of wild note, and he'd made it work -- Duncan subscribed to the philosophy that a mistake is an opportunity, because it's what you play AFTER the mistake that determines whether it is a mistake after all. This is a very common philosophy among jazz musicians.

Anyway, Duncan told me that Paul and Grace had wanted to edit the solo to leave out that wild note, which MADE the solo in Duncan's opinion, so there was some disagreement there. In the end, Duncan wasn't sure if the note had been left in or edited out, because he hadn't listened to the record in many years at that point, and didn't remember. He did remember he didn't get paid for playing the guitar on that tune, he'd done it as a favor to Freiberg, and didn't care so much about getting paid as much as he cared about his solo not being messed around with.

 

The joke between the other guitarist and me in a band I was in back in the 7os was, "If you make a clam, IMMEDIATELY play the very same thing again. That way, listeners will think that's what you meant to play!"

 

I suppose that would work, but it seems like very dull, unimaginative, workmanlike way of "fixing" a mistake... and it goes against the idea that a mistake is an opportunity, a chance to rise to a challenge to your ability as a player.

Duncan didn't make all that many mistakes, but he said it always became interesting to him when he did, because then he became inspired by going in a different direction than where he thought he was gonna go.

John Cipollina used to say that his own playing wasn't usually all that interesting to him, because he almost always knew what he was going to play before he played it. John used to say he played his best when he was surprised by what he was playing, and that almost always happened when he was in a feverish delirium. I remember seeing him one night in San Francisco (I saw him many times, close to a hundred shows) and that night John was very sick with a high fever. Anyone else would have stayed home in bed, but no, not John. He liked to "break" a fever by working through it, and he also knew he was especially going to enjoy playing that night, because his playing was going to surprise him. John usually played very well, and that night, he did play especially well.

A few years after that particular show, I was backstage at show in Palo Alto, waiting to talk to John. He was talking to a young pretty girl, and I didn't want to interrupt or get in the way, so I just sat on a couch nearby and waited (I think I may have had something to read, like a newspaper).

I'm close enough to hear what John is saying, but I'm not really listening or paying attention, when suddenly I hear John saying my name. He'd been telling this girl about how he thought he did his best playing in a feverish delirium, such as one particular night in San Francisco, and he was mentioning my name because he turned to me and said, "I think you were there."

I confirmed that I was there that night, and he had played very well indeed.

I was surprised for two reasons. One, that he was bringing me into a conversation that I hadn't been part of up to that point, and two, that he'd noticed that I'd been there and remembered that I'd been there too.

It wasn't like I went to all his shows either. I did see him close to a hundred times, but that was over a seven year period (from 1982 until he died), and at that time, Cipollina was usually playing about three nights a week with various bands (he was always in several bands at once, except back in the Quicksilver days when he was ONLY a member of Quicksilver).

 

I was lucky to see QMS with the classic Duncan/Cipollina lineup many times. I think they each made the other a better player. I did see a later lineup of Quicksilver with just Gary Duncan as the only original member and I couldn't recognize a single song that they played. It was kind of a strange show but it was still good to see him up there doing it.

As a personal opinion only, I always felt that Dino Valente ruined that band. I never liked his songs, his voice, or anything about him. Never knew him personally, but I never thought he was a good fit for Quicksilver. Without him, they may have continued for a lot longer, but that is just speculation on my part. I'm sorry for Gary Duncan, he was one of my favorites.

 

RIP.
At this moment by memory I am thinking to Gold and Silver from the Quicksilver Messenger Service's first album.
Great fellowship with John Cipollina.

 

You must be much older than I to have had that opportunity.

Are you sure David Freiberg wasn't there too? Freiberg was almost always around during that period when Duncan was leading the band, playing almost exclusively new material (they would perform Pride Of Man with Freiberg singing, and would often play classic jazz instrumentals like Maiden Voyage (Herbie Hancock) and Sunflower (Freddie Hubbard).

I knew Duncan and Cipollina. I didn't know Dino Valenti, although I did meet him twice. Valenti was a real sore spot for many Quicksilver fans -- you either loved him or hated him.
I liked what he brought to the band in terms of his singing, and much (but not all) of the material he contributed. Quicksilver did need someone who was a strong songwriter, and before he joined, they didn't have that. Quicksilver couldn't keep pumping out versions of Bo Diddley songs (like Mona and Who Do You Love).

As for the idea that the band could have gone much further without Dino, keep in mind that the only reason Duncan rejoined the band (at the time of the 69-70 New Years Eve show) was because Dino Valenti talked him into it (Duncan told me this himself), and because Quicksilver by that time had agreed to let Dino in if Duncan would return. So no Dino, and the band wouldn't really have gone too much further -- I absolutely LOVE Shady Grove (my favorite Quicksilver album, and one of my favorite albums by ANY band EVER), but that line-up really wouldn't have had the kind of appeal that the Just For Love line-up had. Shady Grove four-piece NEVER would have been able to come up with something that had hit potential like Fresh Air or What About Me.

You can mourn the loss of the line-up on the first two albums, but once Gary Duncan left after the 68-69 New Years Eve show (in large part because the other members of Quicksilver wouldn't let Dino join as a full member), Quicksilver was never going to be the same, no matter what.

It's unfortunate that along with his singing, his charisma, and his material, Dino Valenti also brought his massive ego and bad attitude, and those were the two things that caused
Hopkins, and soon after that, Cipollina to leave the band.

By the time Duncan was leading the band in the 80s and 90s and early 2000s, knowing that the band needed a prolific songwriter, he decided he didn't need Dino Valenti anymore for that because he stepped up and took that role himself. Duncan literally wrote hundreds of songs during that time, much of which was very jazz-influenced. Freiberg wasn't playing bass with Duncan during this time, only keyboards and vocals. Duncan didn't think Freiberg's bass had enough "funk" to it, although he admitted that Freiberg was technically a great bassist.

 

I bought Happy Trails as soon as I read the Rolling Stone review and it's been in my personal Top 10 for 50 years, so I'm embarrassed to admit I've only lately dug into further QSM live stuff. And what an embarrassment of riches there are! I was especially blown away by Back Door Man at the Fillmore June 7, 1968. I'll don't know if I'll ever be able to listen to the Doors' version again, were they inspired by QSM to do that and Who Do You Love? And a question I should have asked years ago, is it Gary Duncan singing on those tunes? I wish we had a 50-year anniversary issue of HT.

 

This is the Duane Allman philosophy and I buy into it 100 percent.

 

Definitely Duncan singing Quicksilver's version of Back Door Man.

 

I don’t think these two things are mutually exclusive at all. Play the bum note until it sounds right then move on to that new exploratory direction.

 

RIP

 

Well, if Gary was still alive, and I still had his home phone #, I'd give him a call and ask him what he thought of that approach. But he isn't, and even before he died, I no longer had his current #, so there's that...

When I knew Duncan, he was living in Richmond CA. Last I'd heard (about 4 years ago), he was separated (divorced?) from his wife, and had moved to Sacramento. His obituaries say he died in Woodland CA, which is close to Sacramento.

 

This is an interesting opinion, and certainly in addressing the fact that Gary left QMS before Shady Grove, and before Dino's return, you can't hang that one on Dino. But I don't really subscribe to your overall POV here, for a couple of reasons:

QMS pre-Dino's return might well have used a stronger songwriter. But it is neither the case that the alternative was covers of Bo Diddley songs (or other blues performers). The first album had no covers and five songs with no credits to Valenti. I think Shady Grove is somewhat uneven when it comes to the writing efforts there, but overall it had several good songs on it.

As for hit potential, I would guess you are ambivalent about that standard as well as I am. But let's put it this way - did it really have to be an either/or choice between increased popularity and the presence of someone who apparently ended up leading to Cipollina leaving? I don't know the answer, as in fact I wonder if John was just more about playing live, as he did with a number of different bands. But I doubt it should have been a real either/or choice.

In the end I am one who loved the first two, very much liked Shady Grove, have Copperhead (got it when it first came out) which I mostly like. I've picked up work John did with Nick, and it was my great pleasure to see that band live with Elmore and some young guy on bass back in the early 80's. I later got their Lost Gold and Silver collection, and enjoy other live stuff from the "classic" period. But I don't have the stuff they did with Valenti.

 

The first Quicksilver album had no covers?!

HELLO! Pride Of Man? Or does your copy not have that tune?

Also, keep in mind that at least two of the tunes on the first Quicksilver album were "leftovers" from David Freiberg's pre-Quicksilver days as a folkie, namely Dino's Song and Pride Of Man. (Codine and Babe I'm Gonna Leave You from the Revolution soundrack were likewise part of Freiberg's repertoire as a folkie.)
But the band couldn't keep milking Freiberg's folk material any more than they could keep re-doing Bo Diddley tunes.

 

My mistake, and I guess I was thinking about the arrangement rather than the authorship. Still, I was right about most of what they did.