Genesis - A Trick of the Tail: Blind Listening Test

I just checked my CD and the glitch is definitely there.

I believe all Blue-face discs carry the same mastering. Matrices should not matter. The Yellow Rays version is a bit pricier than the Blue-face, but there's a reasonably cheap copy on Discogs right now. It should be the first listing from Germany. - Genesis - A Trick Of The Tail
There are also some decently priced Blue-face CDs here. - Genesis - A Trick Of The Tail

1. West German releases
2. V/C/Atco/Japan releases (all of these are level shifted and cancel out when they're matched. The only difference is that the Atco has some slightly clipped peaks. Got the info from here: Genesis - early CD versions thread (Ver. 2))
3. DE Remaster

 

It's not that simple.......... from your link......

A Trick Of The Tail

There appear to be TWO original masterings of this title.

The Atco is derived from the V/C Nimbus, but is not a simple level shift, as Raf's notes below show.

"Raf wrote:
"The V/C and Atco CDs of Trick are derived from the same digital source. Barring the issues described below, the two cancel out completely when the levels are matched. Are they the same mastering, technically speaking? You tell me! There's been a bit of monkeying done here."

 

Thanks!

So... by DE, do you mean the 1994 "Definitive Edition", or are you referring to the "Deluxe Edition" from the box with the 5.1 DVDA ?

Also - the listing for the "Nimbus" at the DR database claims it is different than the blue-face. (but is it the same as the ATCO or one of the others?)

Album list - Dynamic Range Database

Man, this is confusing. The fact that so many of them share the same CDSCD4001 catalog number doesn't help matters, either.

 

Thank you for the clarification Diablo Griffin
Apparently it's my imagination that I do not hear the drop-out in my Atco cd ,
Probably I convinced myself that a miracle happened and the problem had disappeared from the cd becouse I love the sound of the Atco cd,
, The V/C CD ( which I also have) is also a big favorite of nine and even if the drop-out is also there ... for me it's not there There are discoveries that should stay in the Dark and never be discovered

Thanks again for the Test, I enjoyed it

 

The Definitive Edition is what I was referring to. The Nimbus is not the same as the Blue-face. The Atco uses the same digital source as the Nimbus, but as stated above, the inconsistent level boosting and clipping make people regard it as a different mastering. Others say they're technically the same. It's really a YMMV thing. To my ears, the Atco's clipping doesn't really affect the sound enough to warrant purchasing the Nimbus instead. That's the main reason I sold it. Both versions sound good, so just buy whichever one is cheaper.

 

And to add more info from the previous thread comparing the Atco to the V/C ......

"First up, the volume levels:

Tracks 1 and 3 = the Atco is 0.8 dB louder compared to the V/C
Track 2 = the Atco is 1.8 dB louder
Tracks 4, 5, 6 and 7 = the Atco is 0.4 dB louder
Track 8 = the Atco is 1.4 dB quieter

Tracks 1, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 on the Atco have clipped peaks. I was going to do a detailed listing, but there are too many. I counted three clipped peaks on Dance on a Volcano and eleven on Squonk before I gave up. To complicate matters more, track 8 is clipped on the V/C.

LP6's report that the V/C has longer fades is correct. This is true of all the tracks."

Essentially the Atco and V/C are different, so the omission of the V/C from this post's test is unfortunate.

 

OK, I think I've got it now.

4 different CD masters total

Master A: DE from 1994
Master B: blue-face/yellow-rays
Master C: EVERYTHING ELSE, including the Atco, Nimbus, V/C
Master D (from the DVDA box set. Not included included in the test, which is OK because I'm pretty sure it's universally reviled)

Only one thing I'm still confused by: if the Diament/Atco is just a level changed version of the Nimbus, then there is no unique "Diament master". It seems weird that he would futz with the levels that much and not do anything else.

 

As I have posted above............

"The Atco is derived from the V/C Nimbus, but is not a simple level shift, as Raf's notes below show.

Raf wrote:
"The V/C and Atco CDs of Trick are derived from the same digital source. Barring the issues described below, the two cancel out completely when the levels are matched. Are they the same mastering, technically speaking? You tell me! There's been a bit of monkeying done here."

First up, the volume levels:

Tracks 1 and 3 = the Atco is 0.8 dB louder compared to the V/C
Track 2 = the Atco is 1.8 dB louder
Tracks 4, 5, 6 and 7 = the Atco is 0.4 dB louder
Track 8 = the Atco is 1.4 dB quieter

Tracks 1, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 on the Atco have clipped peaks. I was going to do a detailed listing, but there are too many. I counted three clipped peaks on Dance on a Volcano and eleven on Squonk before I gave up. To complicate matters more, track 8 is clipped on the V/C.

LP6's report that the V/C has longer fades is correct. This is true of all the tracks."


These things are enough for someone to prefer one disc to the other.

 

I only have the DE and just stumbled across this poll. After reading the comments, I find it interesting the commentary after the findings release. It seems, though not totally provable, that people actually like to hear some compression, treble, etc........as long as it is not overly done? That would be me. I have always told here that the DE's didn't sound as good as other versions. I never had a huge problem with them. I still like to hear drums sound like drums and instruments not a muddled mess. I really believe you can tell how well drums are recorded goes hand in hand with how the rest of the instruments sound. I never really totally followed the "able to turn it up loud axiom" as compared to hearing some separation of instruments and some clarity at lower levels. But maybe, that is just me. Amazing, peoples likes and ears isn't it?

 

I had a different response. I own the DE, which I bought because it was cheap and available used. I never spend much time or money tracking down "preferred versions" of albums, as I'm more focused on the music. But I chose C in this poll, which clearly sounded better to my ears, followed by B, which was still preferable to A. Now I'll have my eyes open for a new copy of Trick.

 

If you were to choose between the blue face and the yellow rays version - which is the better of them?

 

They both have the same mastering, so it's just a case of getting whichever one is cheaper. The yellow rays version is what I have simply because I like the label design and it was reasonably cheap.

 

Hopefully some one will correct me if I am wrong but the DVDA box and the Europe sacd box have the remixes from 2008. The DE editions I believe are the last time the original mixes were used for Trick and all the preceding Genesis albums.

 

Thanks a lot. I just ordered the blue face for about 8 Euro plus shipping.

 

Great test, and interesting results!

For those seeking it out, as mentioned in one of the many other Genesis mastering threads the blue face disc seems to have been a better transfer overall - no dropouts or channel collapses - but it should be noted that this mastering does have missing samples in the opening line of Ripples (during '...every size'). This line has audible clicks in all other digital versions so I guess this was just the chosen way of dealing with them in this first attempt. My go-to version otherwise .

 

I would like to ask about this US ATCO. I have the CD/DVD of Trick of the Tail. I had completely forgot about it until I scanned my CD's. This ATCO is yellow and remastered by Tony Cousins. Is this the one you speak of? I'm thinking it isn't.

Because, I put this in and listened to just Dance on a Volcano last night and really enjoyed what I heard. It sounded much more dynamic than the DE. I'm going to listen to the rest tonight.

 

I have always liked the DE, recently I listened to "A Trick Of The Tail" (DE) and marvel at how good it sounds.

Sorry to threadcrap.

 

No - the Atco I have is mastered by Barry Diament.

 

That's because a lot of people assume a 1990's remaster automatically means it's been brick-walled and you know what happens when you ass-u-me.

 

How do we know that? Barry is not credited on the Atco CD.

 

This version is a remix, so you're essentially comparing apples and oranges here. Just curious, but are you listening to the CD or the 5.1 mix from the DVD?

 

Genesis reissues after the 1994 DE remasters are the Nick Davis remixes. If yours are CD/DVDs then yes indeed they are the Davis and are the same as in the CD/DVD or SACD/DVD box sets.

 

Just the stereo. Funny, in the insert it says DVD 5.1 and mixes done by Nick Davis. Remastered at Metropolis Mastering by Tony Cousins. Is the stereo the same as the box set I wonder?

 

Thank You. I'm wondering why the mastering credit goes to someone else. Though I understand mastering and remixing are different. Is Cousins mentioned on the box set I wonder? I guess the bigger question is this the only separate CD/DVD they put out as opposed to the box set? Or did I just miss those completely?

 

See the credits on this page: Genesis - A Trick Of The Tail

Mixed By: (5.1 surround sound & stereo) Nick Davis
Remastered by: Tony Cousins

The box set is the same.