Genesis - did they really sell out?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by manco, Sep 10, 2019.

  1. couchguy

    couchguy Forum Resident

    I will hang in there and say they were great until Hackett left , Wind and Wuthering gets a spin in my den now and again
     
    abzach likes this.
  2. misteranderson

    misteranderson Forum Resident

    Location:
    englewood, nj
    Tony's writing wasn't made for chart success without an engaging frontman. He was the glue in Genesis, for sure.

    I never investigated Tony's solo stuff. Peter's post-G career is the only one I really dove into. Never owned anything by the other guys, aside from the first two Hackett records.
     
  3. Tristero

    Tristero A Muted Trumpeter Swan

    Location:
    MI
    Agreed. I believe that they were making the music that they wanted to make in the 80s. Like most of their old peers, they'd largely moved on from the old progressive sound.
     
    Rojo and gabbleratchet7 like this.
  4. mbrownp1

    mbrownp1 Forum Resident

    “Selling out” is a meaningless term. If someone makes music that is immensely popular and sells well, it means they have struck a chord that resonates in the human heart, soul, brain, etc. That cannot be a negative thing, even if it is an intentional move away from the original direction. No matter how contrary you want to be.

    “Sell out” is second only to “overrated & underrated” on the list of meaningless, non-productive terms thrown around freely in this forum.
     
    Joe McKEe and davers like this.
  5. BarryChicago

    BarryChicago A Flower

    Location:
    Michigan
    When I think of groups that are labeled as "sellouts", I can easily pin down groups that:
    • Were already a well-known band
    • Had label pressure to make hits
    • Were not real fans of this new music they made
    • Were reliant on lots of outside help
    • Made changes to their sound abruptly
    Genesis doesn't seem to fit any of these things that I listed. They were a band with a cult following that rose their way to the top as their sound evolved. Their later output was the music the group wanted to make. In addition, they never abandoned their old sound entirely, as they always included one or two proggy songs on their 80s albums. Other than the collaboration with the EWF Horns (and Brian Eno in their early days), Genesis was never really a band that worked with outsiders. And despite all of this, they were still a popular group. It really do be like that sometimes.

    And yes, I don't think Genesis "sold out." I can listen to Trespass and Invisible Touch in the same day and still enjoy them both because... it's Genesis. Both albums have moments where you can go "that's a very Genesis-ian moment right there."
     
  6. abzach

    abzach Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sweden
    Not to me, and if it was, I wouldn't rejoice.
     
  7. Evethingandnothing

    Evethingandnothing Forum Resident

    Location:
    Devon
    I agree to an extent. Indeed, "Sell out" can be viewed in different ways. For instance, if a band stops developing, becomes a legacy act which relies on touring their past glories, perhaps hates themselves a bit for doing so, but continues this way to please the fans, and to make a wage, is that not selling out?
     
  8. Say It Right

    Say It Right Not for the Hearing Impaired

    Location:
    Niagara Falls
    Why are there shots being taken at Mike Rutherford as a lead guitarist? He's an excellent bass player, a very good rhythm guitarist, an accomplished songwriter and had a solo career and led another successful group outside of Genesis. Apparently, he's respectable on the bass pedal too.

    What more do you want from the guy? After Hackett (btw, I'm seeing him live on Thursday night) left, Daryl Steurmer was brought in, and they couldn't have done much better in that regard.
     
  9. drad dog

    drad dog Forum Resident

    Location:
    New England
    They were one of those bands who went from songwriting and recording, to writing in the studio. The Stones did that too. Has that ever gone well?

    I recall an interview with one of the three, maybe Mike, and the mood was a little disappointed at not having their songs become part of the "songbook", like the beatles, basically. In context I took it to mean the prog stuff, although I'm probably biased. But it must have been in the 80s.
     
  10. misteranderson

    misteranderson Forum Resident

    Location:
    englewood, nj
    You forgot "Cash Grab."
     
    mbrownp1 likes this.
  11. steppednwhat

    steppednwhat I hallucinate on Dr. Pepper

    Location:
    Norman Oklahoma
    Absotively
     
    Scope J likes this.
  12. steppednwhat

    steppednwhat I hallucinate on Dr. Pepper

    Location:
    Norman Oklahoma
    "artistical"?
     
  13. Huntigula

    Huntigula All I wanted was a Pepsi...

    Location:
    Brighton, MI
    Some parts of this conversation reminds me of a line in a Mellencamp song from 1980, that said "...and there ain't no more progressive music, the business has put it to an end"

    I wonder if it really was an industry mandate. It's just weird to me that, seemingly overnight in 1980, suddenly these album-side length song bands were doing albums with more streamlined songs. I can't see a "Supper's Ready" type song getting much airplay in 1981.

    Of course, I wasn't there, so Idk for sure. It's just very interesting to me.
     
  14. dubious title

    dubious title Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ontario
    I suppose I should walk down the street at try my hand a grabbing a ticket. I'll admit I got a little teary eyed at the Music Hall when they played Fountain. Thanks for the reminder.
     
  15. Evethingandnothing

    Evethingandnothing Forum Resident

    Location:
    Devon
    The old proggers were never gonna fit in with punk, but the electronic & new romantic stuff that was emerging in 1980 was much more technically proficient (or at least had the appearance of being so) and perhaps easier for the proggers to integrate and update themselves with.
     
    Huntigula likes this.
  16. Evethingandnothing

    Evethingandnothing Forum Resident

    Location:
    Devon
    Funny thing is that Marillion were popular throughout the 80's doing Gabriel era Genesis type stuff.
     
  17. kaztor

    kaztor How I feel when there is no coffee? Depresso.

    IT is still a very solid album by anyone’s standards.
    It’s my least favourite Genesis album (with the possible exception of the debut), but as a pop/prog crossover album it’s still enjoyable.
    It’s just that I think it strays a bit too far into chart-friendly territory and the other albums are a bit more cohesive.
    More modern production and they had pop hooks aplenty.
    Whichever way you slice it, a simple, dumb popsong it isn’t. You can still hear the craftsmanship of a group of veterans.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
  18. kaztor

    kaztor How I feel when there is no coffee? Depresso.

    Any artist or band could be accused of selling out.
    You love playing an instrument, or any instrument, and you happen to be good at it.
    You don’t want anyone else to hear you play?
     
  19. Eleventh Earl of Mar

    Eleventh Earl of Mar Somehow got them all this far.

    Location:
    New York
    It's sort of hard to tell, really. You can see it as Lamb being a progression and Trick being more closely related to Selling, or the Lamb sort of being isolated due to multiple things - the most obvious is the insane genre melding that happens and occasionally sounds completely alone from where they were the album before, but being a double concept album with only PG writing and a very long running time makes it difficult to see how Trick came out of it, at least.

    Abacab got where it was once everyone figured Duke was essentially how far they could take their music in the context of how they worked before, and other than maybe Me and Sarah Jane, completely was the record that broke that cycle, if only once or arguably twice.
     
  20. angelo73

    angelo73 ⬚⿻⬚⿻⬚

    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    Sell out ?
    No way José !
    Not even the Banks-Rutherford Genesis
    with Ray Wilson on lead-vocals.were a sell-out, imo ~ they made wonderful music, all line-ups, from Trespass to Calling All Stations. One of the greatest bands of all time.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019
  21. manco

    manco Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    The only indispensable member was Tony Banks. Without him you don't get all those interesting chords.
     
    LC4O likes this.
  22. Denim Chicken

    Denim Chicken Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bakersfield, CA
    I always thought Mike really handled himself well. His lead on Burning Rope is fantastic and I’ve always loved the solo at the end of That’s All.
     
  23. manco

    manco Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    Interesting that they never performed Undertow, I guess too difficult?
     
  24. When accused of having way too much input on albums such as Invisible Touch and We Can't Dance, Phil Collins has once mentioned something like "Just try to force Tony Banks into doing something he doesn't really want to do, it's really not going to happen". I think Tony Banks was as happy with the band's move towards pop as anybody else in the band. His solo stuff has always sounded more like And Then There Were Three and Invisible Touch than like Foxtrot or Wind and Wuthering. He's mentioned Duke as his favourite Genesis album as well. The only negative comments about the band's pop era I've ever heard from Tony Banks were when asked about not performing Abacab material during the 2007 tour, he mentioned "that's stuff I really can't get into anymore".
     
    angelo73 likes this.
  25. It was obvious that there was no future for prog rock bands unless they were moving on to something different, Genesis knew that. By the 80s all the classic prog rock bands were either gone (Emerson Lake & Palmer, Procol Harum, Family) or they had moved into a pop direction like the bands I mentioned previously. You can call it selling out or moving on because times have changed.
     

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