Genesis - early CD versions thread (Ver. 2)

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Black Elk, May 24, 2008.

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  1. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover Thread Starter

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    This is an updated version (Ver. 2) of this original thread: http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=134864


    Overview of changes in this version

    1. FGTR: EAC data added for DCC and Disky versions of From Genesis To Revelation;
    2. Trespass: THIRD mastering identified; EAC data for Japanese Black Triangle, Japanese Big Artist and MCA Canada versions of Trespass added;
    3. Cryme: THIRD mastering identified; EAC data added for V/C Megastore, V/C West German and Atlantic versions of Nursery Cryme,
    4. Foxtrot: EAC data added for two different V/C no country versions of Foxtrot;
    5. Live: question raised whether Versions 3 and 4 of Live are related to each other, addition of new comments by Raf;
    6. Selling: EAC data for Japanese Black Triangle with incorrect track start added and explanation provided for different levels reported for Atlantic version of Selling England By The Pound;
    7. Lamb: EAC data added for V/C West German, Japanese Black Triangle, Japanese VJD, unknown V/C, Atco RE-1 and Atco Canada versions of The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway; discussion of incorrect and ‘corrected’ track start for Broadway Melody Of 1974 added;
    8. Trick: EAC data added for Atco US, Atco Canada, Charisma Yellow Rays, Japanese Black Triangle and Japanese VJD versions of A Trick Of The Tail; correction made with regard to sound quality of West German Blue Face;
    9. Wind: NEW (?) mastering identified, two other masterings found to be EQ’d clones; EAC data added for West German Sonopress, US Atco (WEA) and Japanese Black Triangle versions of Wind & Wuthering; confirmation of pre-emphasis on Sonopress-made discs;
    10. Seconds Out: THIRD (?) mastering identified; EAC data added for US Atlantic, Japanese Black Triangle and Japanese VJD versions;
    11. ATTWT: West German Blue Face V/C was found to be identical to West German Target and Yellow Rays, but the Japanese Black Triangle was found to be a unique mastering; EAC data added for Charisma West German Yellow Rays, V/C West German Blue Face and Japanese VJD versions of And Then There Were Three;
    12. Duke: EAC data added for Atlantic Canada version of Duke; notes added about use of ‘V/C’ with regard to West German Yellow Rays pressing and channel reversal issue with this same pressing;
    13. Abacab: EAC data added for West German Blue Swirl, West German (for Japan) Red/Orange Swirl, JVC Japan and Atlantic Gold versions of Abacab;
    14. 3SL: EAC data added for V/C PDO, UK and West German Blue Swirl and Orange Swirl versions of Three Sides Live; correction of Raf’s Vertigo Disc 1; note added on V/C Disc 2 track start error;
    15. information added for Genesis, Invisible Touch and We Can’t Dance albums.


    A short note about Japanese Black Triangle discs

    Some of the early Japanese discs with catalog numbers beginning 32VD for single discs and 28VD for 2CD sets have been found to be derived from the respective V/C Nimbus versions, and in the first version of this thread, where data comparisons had not been done, it was assumed that all Black Triangles were related to the V/C Nimbus editions. This has been found to be incorrect, and some Black Triangles are unique masterings. The current breakdown is as follows:

    V/C Nimbus-based: Nursery Cryme; Foxtrot; Selling England By The Pound; The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway; A Trick Of The Tail; Duke; Invisible Touch

    Unique Mastering: Trespass; And Then There Were Three

    Unknown: Live; Wind & Wuthering; Seconds Out; Abacab; Three Sides Live; Genesis; We Can’t Dance; The Way We Walk




    Introduction

    This thread is a response to recent and on-going discussions on the forum about early CD versions of the Genesis catalog, i.e., it is concerned with all CD versions released BEFORE the Definitive Edition Re-masters (DE) in 1994. The information contained here is drawn from the following threads:

    http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=47469

    http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=105179

    http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=131883

    http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=134864

    The scope here is to try to identify all the various versions that the forum has uncovered, but, given that the above threads run to over 80 pages, some posts of the type "Version X is identical to my Version Y" may have been missed. If your contribution is missing, it was not deliberate.

    The reference point for all discussions is the Nimbus-made version on the Virgin/Charisma label (where that information is available, it is presented first). This will be referred to as V/C Nimbus. Similarly, other V/C versions will be identified by their manufacturer. This thread will, hopefully, highlight the problem of simply referring to a generic ‘V/C’ version for some titles.

    Due to the large amount of data, separate posts will be made for each album in chronological order.

    In order to keep things as compact as possible, certain members' contributions are identified using the following abbreviations:

    And = Andreas
    BE = Black Elk
    chia = chiagerald
    Dr. M = Dr. Merkwürdigli
    Geoff = RayistaGeoff
    Great = Great Deceiver
    hat = hatfield
    HiFi = HiFi Guy 008
    Jamie = Jamie Tate
    Jeff = Jeff Carney
    kev = kevin5brown
    LP6 = LesPaul666
    maf = mafru2
    nemo = nemosonic
    yes = yesstiles

    Please POST in this thread if:

    1. you have EAC data for a pressing that is not listed (be it the same as a listed version or unique);
    2. you find any errors in the data;
    3. you feel your quoted view has been misrepresented;
    4. you have contributions for the post Three Sides Live albums.


    Please DO NOT POST in this thread if:

    1. you disagree with the group opinions. If your preference is different, the place to post your viewpoint is the main discussion thread (http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=131883);
    2. you want to discuss the DE or 2007 re-masters. This thread is intended to identify versions of the early CDs only. If you prefer the DE or 2007 re-masters, again, please express your viewpoint in the main discussion thread linked above or in the new album-by-album thread (http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=134708).

    To make it easy for forum members to find the information, please hold off on adding anything to the thread until all the posts up to The Way We Walk have appeared.

    Finally, a public thank you to forum member Raf for not only undertaking much of the analysis work but also performing editing and review duties behind the scenes. The following represents the contributions and opinions of this forum’s members, so thanks to you all for taking the time to share.
     
  2. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover Thread Starter

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    From Genesis To Revelation

    There appear to be THREE original masterings of this title.

    Version 1
    [AndrewS] - DCC : 65.7% - 82.4% - 65.3% - 90.2% - 68.4% - 87.4% - 92.0% - 96.9% - 85.1% - 62.5% - 87.3% - 78.7% - 46.5% - 80.6% - 73.9% - 64.8% - 63.9%


    Version 2
    [maf] - Disky (first 17 tracks only) : 82.8% - 80.1% - 69.7% - 86.0% - 69.0% - 92.5% - 71.0% - 91.9% - 92.7% - 95.6% - 89.1% - 64.8% - 90.2% - 79.2% - 48.6% - 66.4% - 66.0%


    All the following was provided by Raf, except where indicated.

    - London (1988) - The first CD issue.

    - DCC (1990) - According to Steve, this is a flat transfer from a flat copy of the master tape.

    - Rock Machine (1992) - Released as Where the Sour Turns to Sweet. The tonality is similar to the DCC but with a slight bass boost.

    - Disky (1996) - This sounds most similar to the DCC (in fact, Raf cannot reliably tell them apart). It contains a 1967 demo of Image Blown Out that is not found on any other release. This track and the other bonus track, She's So Beautiful (a mistitling of She Is Beautiful), run about 1% fast. (The latter can be found with correct speed and better sound quality on Archive 1967-1975.)

    - Teichiku (2004). The bass and treble have been boosted (but not as much as the Edsel). This is the only FGTR reissue Raf has heard that has been subjected to compression. It suffers from lots of clipping.

    - Edsel (2005) - Syncs perfectly with the Rock Machine and Disky CDs, but smiley-face EQ has been applied. The bonus tracks are taken from Archive 1967-1975.

    - Revvolution (2006) - Released as The Genesis of Genesis. Contains 2006 ‘remixes’ (actually just the regular stereo versions with drum overdubs) of The Silent Sun and Where the Sour Turns to Sweet. The other bonus tracks are taken from Archive 1967-1975. The remainder of the disc is identical to the Edsel CD.

    Comments by Raf: I've found only THREE truly unique transfers: the London, the DCC, and everything else. That is, everything since the Rock Machine reissue up until the present syncs perfectly with each other; only the EQ and indexing vary (and in the case of at least one Japanese reissue, compression has been applied). These 1992-and-later releases do not sync with either the London or the DCC. It seems that Jonjo (Jonathan King’s company that owns the rights to this album) has been sending out the same digital source as the ‘master tape’ for every re-issue since 1992.

    NOTE: Dr. M determined that the absolute phase of the DCC version is inverted compared to the SKL 4990 vinyl version. The Edsel and Revvolution CDs also show this characteristic.

    The forum’s preferred versions seem to be the London, DCC and Disky.
     
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  3. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover Thread Starter

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    Trespass

    There appear to be THREE original masterings of this title.

    Version 1
    [BE] - V/C Nimbus : 100.0% - 100.0% -100.0% - 100.0% - 54.8% - 100.0%
    [BE] - V/C DADC Austria : 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 54.8% - 100.0%
    [Dr. M] - V/C Sanyo Japan : 100.0% - 100.0% -100.0% - 100.0% - 54.8% - 100.0%
    [Jeff] - V/C Virgin Megastore : 100.0% - 100.0% -100.0% - 100.0% - 54.8% - 100.0%


    Version 2
    [raf] - MCA Canada : Matrix info is #930215LL MCABD-1653 MFG BY CINRAM. On the disc label and the spine, it says MCBBD 1653. The back says "Previously released as MCABD 1653".
    [davenav] - MCA Canada : Matrix info is LT36 MCBBD 1653 #50429Z06.
    [mshare] - MCA Canada : 100.0% - 83.8% - 84.1% - 100.0% - 59.5% - 100.0%

    Variant of Version 2
    [PaulT] - MCA US : 100.0% - 83.8% - 84.1% - 93.0% - 59.5% - 100.0%

    NOTE: Tracks 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6 of the US and Canadian MCAs are digitally identical. However, track 4, Stagnation, is different. The US MCA Stagnation[/i ] seems like an analogue copy of the Canadian MCA mastering. The last 12 seconds of the US MCA Stagnation is faded out; the Canadian MCA has this track completely intact.


    Version 3
    [PaulT] - V/C 32VD-1025, Japan (Black Triangle) : 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 73.4% - 100.0%
    [Jeff] - V/C VJD-28006 (Big Artist series), Japan : 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 73.4% - 100.0%
    NOTE: Recently the Japanese Black Triangle version came to light, and, in comparing samples, Raf determined that it was a unique mastering. Its waveform looks very similar to the V/C but does not maintain sync., so could be mastered from an analogue copy tape. The Big Artist version matches the Black Triangle so is assumed for now to be a clone.


    There have been comments made about the MCA having shortened endings on all tracks. In fact, the Canadian MCA has longer reverb tails on all tracks than the V/C or the DE. The impression of being shortened is due to two reasons: (a) the reverb tails are abruptly cut off instead of smoothly faded out, and (b) there are shorter silent gaps between tracks compared to the V/C and DE. If you give the reverb tails on the Canadian MCA smooth fadeouts, you end up with endings very similar to the DE. It is actually the V/C that has the most shortened endings.

    The MCAs are generally agreed to be brighter-sounding than the V/Cs. Opinion is divided as to which version sounds better.
     
  4. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover Thread Starter

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    Nursery Cryme

    There appear to be THREE original masterings of this title.

    Two of the V/C variants are re-EQ'd copies of the V/C Nimbus mastering. There is an early German V/C version that is louder than all other versions.

    Version 1
    [BE] - V/C Nimbus : 100.0% - 52.7% - 100.0% - 98.5% - 92.7% - 53.3% - 100.0%
    [Gardo] - V/C EMI Swindon, UK : 100.0% - 52.7% - 100.0% - 98.5% - 92.7% - 53.3% - 100.0%
    [Raf] - V/C DADC, Austria : 100.0% - 52.7% - 100.0% - 98.5% - 92.7% - 53.3% - 100.0%
    [Jeff] - V/C Virgin Megastore : 100.0% - 52.7% - 100.0% - 98.5% - 92.7% - 53.3% - 100.0%

    Re-EQ'd copy of Version 1
    [PaulT] - V/C, UK: 100.0% - 53.6% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 95.5% - 50.8% - 100.0%
    NOTE: The absolute phase is inverted on this relative to Version 1. This disc lacks manufacturer information, but looks like BE’s Live disc (see below).

    Re-EQ'd, level-shifted copy of Version 1
    [PaulT] - V/C 32VD-1026, Japan (Black Triangle) : 82.0% - 38.8% - 69.6% - 65.2% - 67.5% - 35.8% - 70.2%
    NOTE: The absolute phase is inverted on this relative to Version 1.


    Version 2
    [maf] - V/C West German : 100.0% - 79.6% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 96.3% - 100.0%
    NOTE: this is an early disc with no barcode, and a simple 4-page booklet that does NOT include the lyrics. It is not yet known if this is related to any of the above versions.
    [Jeff] - V/C, ? (Matrix: CASCD 1052 A) : 100.0% - 79.6% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 96.3% - 100.0%
    NOTE: Jeff reported that the inserts to his copy read ‘Made In Japan’, but there is no information about where the disc was made. He also thinks it sounds way too bright and wondered whether pre-emphasis was NOT being detected and applied during replay.
    NOTE2: Raf analyzed a sample of Jeff’s disc and wrote, “This is a different mastering from any that I've seen before. Granted, I have never seen or heard the Atlantic, so it might be related to that in some weird way....”


    Version 3
    [westcoasting] - Atlantic : 100.0% - 40.0% - 83.6% - 90.6% - 89.5% - 42.1% - 100.0%
    [Gardo] - Atlantic : 100.0% - 40.0% - 83.6% - 90.6% - 89.5% - 42.1% - 100.0%
    NOTE: Raf analyzed a sample and reported, “This is yet another unique mastering.”
     
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  5. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover Thread Starter

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    Foxtrot

    There appear to be FOUR original masterings of this title.

    Version 1
    [BE] - V/C Nimbus : 99.0% - 90.5% - 98.4% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0%
    [Dr. M] - V/C EMI Uden, NL : 99.0% - 90.5% - 98.4% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0%
    [Dr. M] - V/C DADC, Austria : 99.0% - 90.5% - 98.4% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0%
    [Gardo] - V/C EMI Swindon, UK : 99.0% - 90.5% - 98.4% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0%
    [nemo] - V/C, ? (Matrix: CASCD 1058 / B-2303 A) : 99.0% - 90.5% - 98.4% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0%
    NOTE: On the Version 1 mastering the first milliseconds of Time Table are faded in; in other words, the opening piano chord starts slightly soft (many people don't even notice this).

    Level-shifted copy of Version 1
    [PaulT] - V/C 32VD-1027, Japan (Black Triangle) : 82.3% - 75.3% - 81.8% - 83.1% - 83.1% - 83.1%


    Version 2
    [And] - V/C Virgin Megastore @2 : 83.9% - 79.9% - 73.8% - 96.3% - 56.1% - 92.9%


    Version 3
    [maf] - V/C, West German : 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 89.4% - 100.0%
    [Jeff] - V/C, ? (Matrix: CASCD 1058 A) : 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 89.4% - 100.0%
    NOTE: Jeff wrote, “I am not necessarily convinced that [my copy] is pressed in Germany, however. The inserts say ‘Made in West Germany’, but the disc doesn't seem to give any indication as to where it was pressed.”


    Version 4
    [BE] - Atlantic WEA, US : 87.5% - 85.1% - 91.7% - 100.0% - 85.8% - 100.0%


    Both the V/Cs and the Atlantic are liked for different reasons. Andreas has long expressed a preference for the Megastore @2 version, but it seems rare in relation to the Nimbus, so most people have not heard it (or heard only the clips Andreas has posted).

    A section of Supper's Ready (approximately from 14:15 to 15:40) is slightly out of tune (flat) compared to the rest of the song. This is on the master tape, and therefore all releases on all formats before 1994 have this. This was corrected on the DE by simply speeding up that section by the necessary amount. Some people feel the DE is superior for that reason; however, the Foxtrot DE is one of the most obvious examples of the detrimental use of NoNoise in the series -- actual bits of music (such as some of the hi-hat on the first track) are audibly filtered out.
     
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  6. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover Thread Starter

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    Live

    There appear to be FOUR (?) original masterings of this title.

    When clips were posted, preferences were expressed for both the Nimbus/Atlantic and Sanyo/Sonopress 2 versions (as Jeff pointed out, “this is really a question of taste”). Despite forum member Zal Schreiber recalling doing mastering for this title, both chiagerald and Jeff posted figures for the Atlantic disc that match the V/C Nimbus, so it remains unclear whether his version ever went into production.

    Black Elk’s early (no barcode) UK copy lacks any indication of where it was made, but looks like a PDO Blackburn disc. Strangely, it matches a disc made by Sonopress in Germany.

    There are TWO Sonopress editions!

    Version 1
    [Dr. M] - V/C Nimbus : 82.8% - 88.9% - 100.0% - 94.2% - 94.4%
    [chia] - V/C EMI Uden, NL : 82.8% - 88.9% - 100.0% - 94.2% - 94.4%
    [chia] - Atlantic WEA, US : 82.8% - 88.9% - 100.0% - 94.2% - 94.4%
    NOTE: On the V/C Nimbus, in track 2 (Get 'Em Out by Friday) at around 9:12 before the applause fades, the sound stutters in the right channel. No one has reported this on any other early CD edition, so it is unknown whether this is a mastering error, a glitch on a particular pressing, or something actually on the master tape. (The DE cross-fades to the next track at this point; this could be a clue that it was an issue with the master tape that needed to be ‘fixed’).


    Version 2
    [BE] - V/C PDO, UK (?) : 96.7% - 100.0% - 95.4% - 100.0% - 100.0%
    [Dr. M] - V/C Sonopress 1 : 96.7% - 100.0% - 95.4% - 100.0% - 100.0%


    Version 3
    [LP6] - V/C Sanyo, Japan : 100.0% - 100.0% - 91.3% - 86.5% - 99.7%


    Version 4
    [Jeff] - V/C Sonopress 2 : 93.4% - 94.0% - 85.5% - 81.1% - 93.3%
    NOTE: Dr. M has suggested that Versions 3 and 4 may be level-shifted versions of each other. This is still awaiting confirmation.


    After samples were posted, Raf was able to determine the following:

    "The V/C Nimbus and the Atlantic are definitely identical, and they both have that ‘stuttering’ fadeout at the end of this track. It sounds good, though.

    The V/C Sanyo Japan is a different mastering and does not have the fadeout anomaly on Track 2. And yes, it sounds good too."
     
    ricks likes this.
  7. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover Thread Starter

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    Selling England By The Pound

    There appear to be THREE (?) original masterings of this title.

    The Japanese discs are based on the Nimbus; the Atlantic is based on the DADC Austria. When clips were posted, the preference was narrowly for the DADC.

    Version 1
    [Dr. M] - V/C Nimbus : 96.2% - 93.0% - 98.9% - 61.3% - 91.6% - 58.2% - 90.4% - 64.6%
    [And] - V/C Virgin Megastore : 96.2% - 93.0% - 98.9% - 61.3% - 91.6% - 58.2% - 90.4% - 64.6%
    NOTE: Absolute phase is inverted on this mastering relative to Version 2 and the DE.

    Level-shifted copy of Version 1
    [PaulT] - V/C 32VD-1029, Japan (Black Triangle) : 77.9% - 71.1% - 78.3% - 52.9% - 74.1% - 53.5% - 74.9% - 58.7%
    [hat] - V/C VJD-28025, Japan : 77.9% - 71.1% - 78.3% - 52.9% - 74.1% - 53.5% - 74.9% - 58.7%
    [Dave] - V/C VJCP-23117, Japan : 77.9% - 71.1% - 78.3% - 52.9% - 74.1% - 53.5% - 74.9% - 58.7%
    NOTE: Absolute phase is inverted on this mastering relative to Version 2 and the DE.

    Level-shifted copy of Version 1 with misplaced Track Start
    [Dave] - V/C 32VD-1029, Japan (Black Triangle) : 77.9% - 71.1% - 78.3% - 52.9% - 74.1% - 53.5% - 64.7% - 74.9%
    NOTE: For some unknown reason, the Track Start for Aisle Of Plenty on Dave’s Black Triangle copy appears 5 minutes before it should (appearing mid-way through Cinema Show).
    NOTE2: The absolute phase of this version is unknown at this time.


    Version 2
    [BE] - V/C DADC, Austria : 99.5% - 96.5% - 97.7% - 62.4% - 78.2% - 53.9% - 75.4% - 61.1%

    Level-shifted copy of Version 2
    [Dave W S] - Atlantic : 95.09% - 92.23% - 95.50% - 60.99% - 76.47% - 52.75% - 73.69% - 59.76%
    [HiFi] - Atlantic : 95.0% - 92.2% - 95.5% - 60.9% - 76.4% - 52.7% - 73.6% - 59.7%
    NOTE: The differing figures for the two Atlantic discs are probably due to computer rounding. For now, these are assumed to be the same mastering.

    NOTE2: Dave W S later reported, "I think it's safe to say these two are the same, as I did not use EAC to get those numbers."


    Version 3?
    [nemo] - V/C Sonopress : 99.5% - 96.5% - 100.0% - 63.8% - 80.0% - 55.2% - 77.1% - 62.5%
    [HiFi] - Atlantic Sonopress : 99.5% - 96.5% - 100.0% - 63.8% - 80.0% - 55.2% - 77.1% - 62.5%
    NOTE: The Sonopress discs match some of the levels of the DADC, but not the entire disc. Is this a further mastering?
     
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  8. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover Thread Starter

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway

    There appears to be only ONE original mastering of this title.

    However, while ALL Disc 2s are identical, level and Track Start differences have been found that lead to SIX Disc 1 variations. Most pressings have an incorrectly placed track start for Broadway Melody Of 1974. In fact, the later DE edition not only duplicates this fault but has the resulting incorrect track times printed on the back cover of the CD! This problem has been ‘corrected’ on some pressings, but in TWO different ways. The issue then is whether one considers the loud musical interlude between the end of the lyrics to Fly On A Windshield (And I'm hovering like a fly, waiting for the windshield on the freeway.) and the start of the lyrics to Broadway Melody Of 1974 (Echoes of the Broadway Everglades) to be part of Fly or Broadway.

    Disc 1
    [Raf] - V/C Nimbus : 98.1% - 85.5% - 12.0% - 62.7% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 62.5% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0%
    [BE] - V/C Sanyo, Japan : 98.1% - 85.5% - 12.0% - 62.7% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 62.5% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0%
    [hat] - V/C DADC, Austria : 98.1% - 85.5% - 12.0% - 62.7% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 62.5% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0%
    [yes] - V/C, West German : 98.1% - 85.5% - 12.0% - 62.7% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 62.5% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0%

    Re-indexed copy of Disc 1
    [Dave] - V/C 28VD-1030~31, Japan (Black Triangle) : 98.1% - 46.3% - 85.5% - 62.7% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 62.5% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0%
    NOTE: this version has the Track Start for Broadway Melody Of 1974 at the END of the lyrics for Fly On A Windshield.

    Level-shifted Re-indexed copy of Disc 1?
    [Dave] - V/C VJD-25011~12, Japan : 88.1% - 41.6% - 76.8% - 56.3% - 89.7% - 89.7% - 89.7% - 56.1% - 89.7% - 89.7% - 89.7%
    NOTE: it is assumed that this is a level-shifted version of the 28VD Black Triangle version because (a) its EAC levels seem to follow the 28VD, and (b) because Disc 2 is identical to all other reported Disc 2s!
    NOTE2: it is assumed that this version has the Track Start for Broadway Melody Of 1974 at the END of the lyrics for Fly On A Windshield.

    Level-shifted copy of Disc 1
    [BE] - Atco WEA, US : 95.9% - 83.6% - 11.7% - 61.3% - 97.7% - 97.7% - 97.7% - 61.1% - 97.7% - 97.7% - 97.7%

    Alternative Level-shifted copy of Disc 1
    [Bill S] – V/C, ? (Matrix: CDF 2012 A) : 94.8% - 83.7% - 11.8% - 61.2% - 97.9% -
    96.9% - 95.6% - 59.5% - 97.4% - 96.2% - 94.3%
    Note: this disc is not a simple level-shifted version, nor does its track lengths exactly match those of the above mentioned V/Cs; however, it does mirror the misplaced track start for Broadway Melody and its Disc 2 is identical to the V/C, so it is assumed to be derived from the original V/C mastering.

    Re-indexed Level-shifted copy of Disc 1
    [Jeff] - Atco RE-1 matrix, US : 95.9% - 83.6% - 74.1% - 61.3% - 97.7% - 97.7% - 97.7% - 61.1% - 97.7% - 97.7% - 97.7%
    NOTE: this version has the Track Start for Broadway Melody Of 1974 at the START of the lyrics for Broadway Melody Of 1974.

    Alternative Re-indexed Level-shifted copy of Disc 1
    [jv66] - Atco, Canada : 89.5% - 78.0% - 69.2% - 57.2 % - 91.2% - 91.1% - 91.1% - 57.0% - 91.2% - 91.1% - 91.1 %
    NOTE: this version has the Track Start for Broadway Melody Of 1974 at the START of the lyrics for Broadway Melody Of 1974.


    Disc 2
    [Raf] - V/C Nimbus : 81.1% - 74.7% - 65.1% - 69.3% - 68.4% - 47.9% - 79.4% - 16.2% - 78.0% - 84.0% - 82.9% - 87.6%
    [BE] - V/C Sanyo, Japan : 81.1% - 74.7% - 65.1% - 69.3% - 68.4% - 47.9% - 79.4% - 16.2% - 78.0% - 84.0% - 82.9% - 87.6%
    [hat] - V/C DADC, Austria : 81.1% - 74.7% - 65.1% - 69.3% - 68.4% - 47.9% - 79.4% - 16.2% - 78.0% - 84.0% - 82.9% - 87.6%
    [yes] - V/C, West German : 81.1% - 74.7% - 65.1% - 69.3% - 68.4% - 47.9% - 79.4% - 16.2% - 78.0% - 84.0% - 82.9% - 87.6%
    [BE] - Atco WEA, US : 81.1% - 74.7% - 65.1% - 69.3% - 68.4% - 47.9% - 79.4% - 16.2% - 78.0% - 84.0% - 82.9% - 87.6%
    [jv66] - Atco, Canada : 81.1% - 74.7% - 65.1% - 69.3% - 68.4% - 47.9% - 79.4% - 16.2% - 78.0% - 84.0% - 82.9% - 87.6%
    [Bill S] - V/C (Matrix: CDF 2011 A), ? : 81.1% - 74.7% - 65.1% - 69.3% - 68.4% - 47.9% - 79.4% - 16.2% - 78.0% - 84.0% - 82.9% - 87.6%
    [Dave] - V/C 28VD-1030~31, Japan (Black Triangle) : 81.1% - 74.7% - 65.1% - 69.3% - 68.4% - 47.9% - 79.4% - 16.2% - 78.0% - 84.0% - 82.9% - 87.6%
    [Dave] - V/C VJD-25011~12, Japan : 81.1% - 74.7% - 65.1% - 69.3% - 68.4% - 47.9% - 79.4% - 16.2% - 78.0% - 84.0% - 82.9% - 87.6%


    There is a humming noise that can be heard at various points on Disc 1 of the original CDs (and apparently some of the original vinyl pressings as well). This problem is not on the DE, although it is unknown whether this was achieved by using a better source or merely by filtering out the hum. At any rate, some people prefer the DE because of this; others feel that the ‘hum-less’ advantage of the DE is negated by the obvious use of noise reduction.

    The DE has a slightly longer fade-in for the title track compared to the original CD pressings (i.e. more of the piano intro can be heard on the DE). However, all CD versions differ from the original vinyl release which starts at a slightly higher level at the beginning of the fade-in.
     
  9. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover Thread Starter

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    A Trick Of The Tail

    There appear to be TWO original masterings of this title.

    The Atco is derived from the V/C Nimbus, but is not a simple level shift, as Raf's notes below show. The Black Triangle is also derived from the V/C but is simply shifted a constant 0.2 dB.

    Version 1
    [BE] - V/C Nimbus : 84.9% - 73.0% - 95.6% - 86.2% - 89.8% - 100.0% - 87.7% - 100.0%

    Level-shifted copy of Version 1
    [BE] - Atco Victor Co., Japan : 89.1% - 89.9% - 89.1% - 87.0% - 87.0% - 87.0% - 87.0% - 89.1%
    [Dave] - Atco, US : 89.1% - 89.9% - 89.1% - 87.0% - 87.0% - 87.0% - 87.0% - 89.1%
    [Dave] - Atco, Canada : 89.1% - 89.9% - 89.1% - 87.0% - 87.0% - 87.0% - 87.0% - 89.1%

    Alternative Level-shifted copy of Version 1
    [Dave/Darcy] - 32VD-1032, Japan (Black Triangle) : 83.0% - 71.4% - 93.5% - 84.2% - 87.7% - 97.7% - 85.7% - 97.7%
    [Dave] - VJD-28026, Japan : 83.0% - 71.4% - 93.5% - 84.2% - 87.7% - 97.7% - 85.7% - 97.7%


    Version 2
    [Dr. M] - V/C, West German 814 499-2 (Blue Face) : 97.9% - 78.0% - 89.8% - 95.8% - 90.3% - 86.2% - 90.5% - 96.6%
    [Geoff] – Charisma 814 499-2 01, West German (Yellow Rays) : 97.9% - 78.0% - 89.8% - 95.8% - 90.3% - 86.2% - 90.5% - 96.6%


    Raf wrote:
    "The V/C and Atco CDs of Trick are derived from the same digital source. Barring the issues described below, the two cancel out completely when the levels are matched. Are they the same mastering, technically speaking? You tell me! There's been a bit of monkeying done here.

    First up, the volume levels:

    Tracks 1 and 3 = the Atco is 0.8 dB louder compared to the V/C
    Track 2 = the Atco is 1.8 dB louder
    Tracks 4, 5, 6 and 7 = the Atco is 0.4 dB louder
    Track 8 = the Atco is 1.4 dB quieter

    Tracks 1, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 on the Atco have clipped peaks. I was going to do a detailed listing, but there are too many. I counted three clipped peaks on Dance on a Volcano and eleven on Squonk before I gave up. To complicate matters more, track 8 is clipped on the V/C.

    LP6's report that the V/C has longer fades is correct. This is true of all the tracks.

    The V/C also has a peculiar issue on a couple of tracks. At 4:20 on track 7, there's a section of about 250 samples missing; not a gap, but a very tiny skip that can't be detected by ear. Similarly, a section about 25 samples long is missing at 5:03 on track 8. In both cases, the remainder of the track after the skip is 0.2 dB louder."


    In Version 1 of this thread, it was stated that the West German Blue Face was considered poor sounding, however, after comparing it to the V/C Nimbus, Jeff wrote the following: “These are not exactly all that different, folks. I hear air in the WG press that I don't hear in the UK pressing. A bit of top end boost that causes me to prefer the UK pressing….”
     
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  10. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover Thread Starter

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    Wind & Wuthering

    There appear to be THREE (?) original masterings of this title.

    The consensus seems to be that all original CD editions are lacking in bass. Some members prefer the DE for this reason. Others feel that the use of noise reduction on the DE is unforgivable and the older CDs (with or without a manual bass boost) are better; of these people, most seem to prefer the Version 1 mastering (however, the Black Triangle has only just come to light, and it is unlikely many people have yet heard it).

    Version 1
    [Dr. M] - V/C Nimbus : 100.0% - 94.0% - 94.6% - 76.1% - 83.0% - 70.0% - 41.2% - 92.1% - 100.0%
    [BE] - V/C EMI Swindon, UK : 100.0% - 94.0% - 94.6% - 76.1% - 83.0% - 70.0% - 41.2% - 92.1% - 100.0%

    Re-EQ'd copy of Version 1
    [PaulT] - V/C, West German : 100.0% - 100.0% - 83.2% - 97.5% - 100.0% - 80.5% - 39.4% - 100.0% - 100.0%
    [HiFi] - V/C Sonopress, West German (Matrix: SONOPRESS CDSCD4005/B-2309 A): 100.0% - 100.0% - 83.2% - 97.5% - 100.0% - 80.5% - 39.4% - 100.0% - 100.0%
    NOTE: The Sonopress version has its absolute phase inverted relative to Version 1, and also contains pre-emphasis.

    Alternative Re-EQ'd copy of Version 1
    [Jeff] – Atco (WEA), US : 87.1% - 81.3% - 66.7% - 68.6% - 60.6% - 64.1% - 80.0% - 87.0%
    NOTE1: Jeff reported, “This CD sounds like it was mastered from a source with PE off when it should have been on. It is just horrible … I would guess that somebody who mastered this might have used a Sonopress and played it back on something that did not decode the PE. Whatever happened, this thing is a Frisbee.”
    NOTE2: Raf analyzed a sample and reported: “Well, I'm thoroughly confused. This thing syncs with the Nimbus and the WG Sonopress, but it doesn't sound like either of them, either as-is or de-emphasized. I'd love to speculate on a likely hypothesis given the various permutations (i.e. which masterings sound most like what, and which ones probably need de-emphasis), but none of them seem to match closely enough.”


    Version 2
    [BE] - Atco Sanyo, Japan : 81.3% - 82.3% - 78.0% - 78.2% - 74.6% - 71.1% - 79.8% - 80.6%
    [Dr. M] - V/C Sanyo, Japan : 81.3% - 82.3% - 78.0% - 78.2% - 74.6% - 71.1% - 79.8% - 80.6%
    NOTE: This version is easily recognized in that it contains only 8 tracks. Unquiet Slumbers... and ...In That Quiet Earth are combined into Track 7.


    Version 3?
    [Dave] - 32VD-1033, Japan (Black Triangle) : 94.4 % - 87.8 % - 79.4 % - 82.7 % - 67.7 % - 72.9 % - 41.0 % - 94.8 % - 97.0 %
    NOTE: this version has not yet been checked against the above to see whether it is a unique mastering or a level-shifted clone.


    HiFi reported having a UK V/C Sonopress that contains pre-emphasis. This might help explain why some listeners do not like the early CD editions (do their players have de-emphasis properly implemented? Stereophile's tests -- published at http://www.stereophile.com -- of CD players shows that this is not always the case!).

    PlusMinus confirmed that his UK Sonopress copy (matrix = CDSCD 4005/B-2309 A) has pre-emphasis!
     
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  11. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover Thread Starter

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    Seconds Out

    There appear to be THREE (?) original masterings of this title.

    The Atlantic has been reported as brighter than the V/C. The preference is for the V/C. Data comparisons are still needed to determine exactly how many masterings there are.

    Version 1, Disc 1
    [Dr. M] - V/C Nimbus : 100.0% - 82.8% - 100.0% - 99.6% - 100.0% - 94.0% - 97.6% - 92.0%
    [BE] - V/C EMI Uden, NL : 100.0% - 82.8% - 100.0% - 99.6% - 100.0% - 94.0% - 97.6% - 92.0%
    [Raf] - V/C Sonopress : 100.0% - 82.8% - 100.0% - 99.6% - 100.0% - 94.0% - 97.6% - 92.0%

    Version 1, Disc 2
    [Dr. M] - V/C Nimbus : 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0%
    [BE] - V/C EMI Uden, NL : 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0%
    [Raf] - V/C Sonopress : 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0%


    Version 2, Disc 1
    [mshare] – Atlantic, US : 81.2 % - 70.5% - 81.2% - 81.2% - 87.0% - 81.8% - 95.5% - 95.5%

    Version 2, Disc 2
    [mshare] – Atlantic, US : 97.7% - 91.2% - 91.2% - 91.2%


    Version 3, Disc 1
    [Dave] - V/C 28VD-1034~35, Japan (Black Triangle) : 88.1% - 76.2% - 95.0% - 84.3% - 100.0% - 83.1% - 90.2% - 92.0%
    [Dave] - V/C VJD-25007~08, Japan : 88.1% - 76.2% - 95.0% - 84.3% - 100.0% - 83.1% - 90.2% - 92.0%

    Version 3, Disc 2
    [Dave] - V/C 28VD-1034~35, Japan (Black Triangle) : 89.1% - 95.3% - 93.9% - 94.2%
    [Dave] - V/C VJD-25011~12, Japan : 89.1% - 95.3% - 93.9% - 94.2%
    NOTE: Dave could only get the first track of the Black Triangle to read correctly, but its value matches the VJD, and, since the Disc 1s are identical, it is assumed the Disc 2s are also identical.
     
  12. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover Thread Starter

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    And Then There Were Three

    There appear to be THREE original masterings of this title.

    The forum preference is for Version 1 (Version 2 is criticized for being lacking in bass).

    Version 1
    [BE] - V/C Nimbus : 95.2% - 73.9% - 100.0% - 77.7% - 72.9% - 100.0% - 80.5% - 80.8% - 67.9% - 88.8% - 68.0%
    [LP6] - V/C EMI Uden, NL : 95.2% - 73.9% - 100.0% - 77.7% - 72.9% - 100.0% - 80.5% - 80.8% - 67.9% - 88.8% - 68.0%
    [LP6] - V/C Swindon, UK : 95.2% - 73.9% - 100.0% - 77.7% - 72.9% - 100.0% - 80.5% - 80.8% - 67.9% - 88.8% - 68.0%


    Version 2
    [BE] - Atlantic WEA, US : 73.6% - 79.4% - 79.4% - 79.4% - 79.4% - 79.4% - 79.4% - 79.4% - 79.4% - 79.4% - 79.0%

    Level-shifted copy of Version 2
    [Jeff] - West German Target : 92.6% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 99.5%
    [Geoff] – Charisma 800059 2 01, West German (Yellow Rays) : 92.6% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 99.5%
    [maf] - Charisma/Polygram, West German : 92.6% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 99.5%
    [Dr. M] - V/C, West German Blue Face: 92.6% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 99.5%


    Version 3
    [PaulT] - V/C 32VD-1015, Japan (Black Triangle) : 84.1% - 84.9% - 89.2% - 78.4% - 89.7% - 94.1% - 84.1% - 85.4% - 78.8% - 93.8% - 74.5%
    [Dave] - V/C VJD-28089, Japan : 84.1% - 84.9% - 89.2% - 78.4% - 89.7% - 94.1% - 84.1% - 85.4% - 78.8% - 93.8% - 74.5%
    NOTE: It was assumed in the first version of this thread that this pressing was a level-shifted version of the V/C. Comparative analysis has shown that it is, in fact, a unique mastering, sync'ing with neither the V/C nor the Atlantic. However, Raf determined that the waveform was similar to the Atlantic, and it could, therefore, be a different mastering from an analogue copy tape.


    NOTE: LP6 found that the ‘Side 2’ tracks on the Atlantic have the channels reversed. Raf found that the same is true on the Target.
     
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  13. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover Thread Starter

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    Duke

    There appear to be THREE (?) original masterings of this title.

    It is unclear where we stand on this one. Opinions seem to be split: some prefer the Version 1 or 2 V/Cs, and some prefer the Atlantic.

    References have been made to a French V/C pressing but no EAC data has been provided for it, nor is there any data for a V/C Nimbus.

    At the minimum there are TWO distinct masterings. The French V/C is far from a simple level-shifted version of the Atlantic, as Raf's analysis below shows.

    Version 1
    [BE] - V/C EMI Swindon, UK : 74.2% - 97.9% - 45.8% - 91.5% - 95.4% - 97.6% - 95.9% - 82.6% - 94.3% - 77.9% - 88.0% - 81.5%
    NOTE: Jamie reported that the V/C EMI Swindon has its absolute phase inverted.

    Level-shifted copy of Version 1?
    [PaulT] - V/C 32VD-1036, Japan (Black Triangle) : 79.0% - 94.5% - 48.8% - 92.9% - 84.5% - 100.0% - 81.8% - 82.3% - 80.9% - 89.5% - 96.3% - 79.6%
    NOTE: this version has not yet been checked against the others to see whether it is a unique mastering or a level-shifted clone.


    Version 2?
    [hat] - V/C Blue Face : 91.3% - 88.4% - 45.7% - 94.5% (only 4 tracks provided)
    [HiFi] - V/C, German Blue Face : 91.3% - 88.4% - 45.7% - 94.5% - 98.4% - 95.8% - 95.8% - 84.3% - 85.4% - 80.7% - 90.7% - 92.3%
    [Geoff] – Charisma 814 270-2, West German (Yellow Rays) : 91.3% - 88.4% - 45.7% - 94.5% - 98.4% - 95.8% - 95.8% - 84.3% - 85.4% - 80.7% - 90.7% - 92.3%
    NOTE: this version has not yet been checked against the others to see whether it is a unique mastering or a level-shifted clone.

    NOTE2: Geoff pointed out, "A small nomenclature thing. At least with respect to the Yellow Rays discs, they don't have the Virgin logo on them anywhere as (presumably) they just pre-date Virgin's acquisition of Charisma (1984 or so?). So it's probably not technically right to call them ‘V/Cs’. They should probably be just ‘Charismas’." The above entry has been changed in this version to reflect this.

    NOTE3: in the previous version of this thread we stated that LP6 had reported that the Polygram/Phonogram 814-270-2 pressing has the same reversed channels as the Atlantic below, however, what LP6 meant was that the Polygram/Phonogram 814-270-2 pressing’s channels are reversed relative to the (incorrect) Atlantic. Geoff confirmed that his Yellow Rays copy also has the correct channel configuration. Apologies for any confusion caused.


    Version 3
    [BE] - Atlantic JVC, US : 87.0% - 87.0% - 51.1% - 89.1% - 87.0% - 87.0% - 89.1% - 89.1% - 89.1% - 86.5% - 87.0% - 87.0%
    [kev] - Atlantic WEA, US : 87.0% - 87.0% - 51.1% - 89.1% - 87.0% - 87.0% - 89.1% - 89.1% - 89.1% - 86.5% - 87.0% - 87.0%
    [hat] - Atlantic Victor Co., Japan : 87.0% - 87.0% - 51.1% - 89.1% - 87.0% - 87.0% - 89.1% - 89.1% - 89.1% - 86.5% - 87.0% - 87.0%
    [Jeff] - Atlantic, Canada : 87.0% - 87.0% - 51.1% - 89.1% - 87.0% - 87.0% - 89.1% - 89.1% - 89.1% - 86.5% - 87.0% - 87.0%

    NOTE: The channels are reversed on this mastering.

    Level-shifted copy of Version 3 (channels correctly oriented)
    V/C France - no data

    Level-shifted copy of Version 3 (channels correctly oriented)
    [Jeff] - V/C PDO, UK : 89.1% - 89.1% - 65.6% - 89.1% - 89.1% - 89.1% - 89.1% - 89.1% - 89.1% - 88.5% - 89.1% - 89.1%


    Raf wrote (with regard to Version 3):
    "The French V/C cancels out with the Atlantic when the latter's channels are reversed. Tracks 4, 7, 8 and 9 on the French V/C are 1 dB louder than their Atlantic counterparts.

    The rest of the French V/C tracks are 1.2 dB louder than the Atlantic except for track 3. And that is where it gets really weird...

    The left channel of track 3 of the Atlantic (which is actually supposed to be the right channel) is 3.2 dB quieter than the right channel of track 3 of the French V/C. However, the right channel of the Atlantic (which should be the left) is only 3 dB quieter than the left channel of track 3 of the French V/C.

    The right channel of track 3 of the French V/C is 3.2 dB louder than the left channel of track 3 of the Atlantic (which is actually supposed to be the right channel). However, the left channel of track 3 of the French V/C is only 3 dB louder than the right channel of the Atlantic (which should be the left).

    Unlike the case with the original Trick CDs, there is no clipping anywhere. In other words, this is just a matter of having different relative levels from track to track (and, in the case of track 3, from channel to channel). In effect, the Atlantic has more dynamic range than the French V/C overall.

    So which is more correct? Is there even a way of telling for sure? The only other edition I have to compare with is the DE, and on the DE, the amount of dynamic range is more like the Atlantic than the French V/C.

    I'm giving this one to the Atlantic, reversed channels and all, unless I see any other evidence that sways my opinion. But if you have absolutely no means of reversing the channels, the French V/C isn't such a big compromise.

    The V/C PDO is the same as the French V/C except that all tracks are 1 dB quieter."
     
  14. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover Thread Starter

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    Abacab

    There appear to be FOUR original masterings of this title.

    As with Duke, there seem to be fans of both the V/C and Atlantic versions. Again there is no V/C Nimbus data to use as a reference.

    Version 1
    [kev] - V/C PDO : 96.7% - 86.8% - 84.2% - 83.7% - 89.6% - 98.6% - 82.4% - 93.8% - 91.6%
    NOTE: Jamie determined that the V/C PDO has its absolute phase inverted.


    Version 2
    [Jeff] - Target : 100.0% - 100.0% - 93.0% - 94.1% - 100.0% - 95.6% - 68.3% - 98.8% - 98.5%
    [Geoff] – Vertigo 800 044 2 01, West German (Blue Swirl) : 100.0% - 100.0% - 93.0% - 94.1% - 100.0% - 95.6% - 68.3% - 98.8% - 98.5%
    [Dave] – Vertigo 32PD-35, West German for Japan (Red/Orange Swirl) : 100.0% - 100.0% - 93.0% - 94.1% - 100.0% - 95.6% - 68.3% - 98.8% - 98.5%


    Version 3
    [Jeff] - Atlantic WEA : 95.5% - 95.5% - 90.9% - 92.0% - 95.5% - 93.4% - 66.7% - 95.5% - 95.5%

    Level-shifted copy of Version 3
    [BE] - Atlantic JVC, US : 100.0% - 100.0% - 95.1% - 96.3% - 100.0% - 97.8% - 69.8% - 100.0% - 100.0%
    [0880773] - Atlantic JVC, Japan : 100.0% - 100.0% - 95.1% - 96.3% - 100.0% - 97.8% - 69.8% - 100.0% - 100.0%


    Version 4
    [0880773] - Atlantic Gold CD 82521-2 : 99.8% - 99.8% - 99.8% - 99.9% - 99.9% - 99.9% - 99.8% - 99.8% - 99.8%
    NOTE: This CD is slightly compressed.
     
  15. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover Thread Starter

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    Three Sides Live

    There is only ONE mastering for Disc 1. However, there are TWO distinct masterings for Disc 2.

    NOTE: In the original release, Side 4 was different for the US and European editions. When the first CDs came out, the track lists in various regions reflected this difference. Strangely, the masterings for Disc 2 of the V/C and Atlantic versions are completely different despite the ‘Side 3’ tracks being the same.

    No V/C Nimbus data has been made available.

    Version 1, Disc 1
    [BE] - V/C EMI Swindon, UK : 100.0% - 97.0% - 96.3% - 86.5% - 87.6% - 96.5% - 89.3%
    [nemo] - V/C PDO, UK : 100.0% - 97.0% - 96.3% - 86.5% - 87.6% - 96.5% - 89.3%
    [Raf] - Vertigo, West German : 100.0% - 97.0% - 96.3% - 86.5% - 87.6% - 96.5% - 89.3%
    [Geoff] – Vertigo 810 007 2 01, West German (Blue Swirl) : 100.0% - 97.0% - 96.3% - 86.5% - 87.6% - 96.5% - 89.3%
    [Jeff] – Vertigo 810 006-2 PMDC, France (Orange Swirl) : 100.0% - 97.0% - 96.3% - 86.5% - 87.6% - 96.5% - 89.3%
    NOTE: the difference in the Vertigo cat. nos. is due to Jeff giving the overall title cat. no., while Geoff has specified the individual disc cat. nos. (the same is true for Disc 2 below).

    Level-shifted copy of Version 1, Disc 1
    [BE] - Atlantic WEA : 85.1% - 82.6% - 82.0% - 73.6% - 74.6% - 82.2% - 76.0%


    Version 1, Disc 2
    [BE] - V/C EMI Swindon, UK : 92.5% - 85.1% - 100.0% - 75.5% - 80.4% - 88.1%
    [nemo] - V/C, UK no manufacturer : 92.5% - 85.1% - 100.0% - 75.5% - 80.4% - 88.1%
    NOTE: There is an incorrect Track Start on the V/C Disc 2 such that One For The Vine is split into two tracks and Fountain Of Salmacis and It/Watcher Of The Skies are merged.


    Version 2, Disc 2
    [BE] - Atlantic WEA : 81.9% - 79.3% - 80.2% - 78.8% - 65.6% - 90.0% - 77.6% - 64.1%
    [Raf] - Vertigo, West German : 81.9% - 79.3% - 80.2% - 78.8% - 65.6% - 90.0% - 77.6% - 64.1%
    [Geoff] – Vertigo 810 008 2 01, West German (Blue Swirl) : 81.9% - 79.3% - 80.2% - 78.8% - 65.6% - 90.0% - 77.6% - 64.1%
    [Geoff] - Vertigo 810 006-2 PMDC, France (Orange Swirl) : 81.9% - 79.3% - 80.2% - 78.8% - 65.6% - 90.0% - 77.6% - 64.1%
     
  16. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover Thread Starter

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    The Rest

    My own interest in Genesis stops with Three Sides Live, and Version 1 of this thread stopped with that album. However, there appears to be an interest in some of the later albums. The following information is drawn ONLY from Version 1 of this thread, and NOT from any of the general threads that have discussed the sound quality of various Genesis albums. Moreover, none of the data comparisons have been done (as far I know) to determine whether versions are related, as has been done above.

    If someone wants to compile and distill the data and comments from the various threads, please feel free to do so and I will add it here in future versions.


    Genesis

    There appear to be FIVE (?) original masterings of this title.

    Version 1
    [yes] - V/C Nimbus, UK : 47.8% - 47.8% - 44.3% - 47.8% - 47.8% - 47.8% - 47.8% - 47.8% - 45.4%


    Version 2
    [yes] - V/C, EMI Uden, NL : 97.7% - 97.6% - 90.5% - 97.7% - 97.7% - 97.7% - 97.7% - 97.7% - 92.8%
    [Great] - V/C EMI Swindon, UK GEN CD1 : 97.7% - 97.6% - 90.5% - 97.7% - 97.7% - 97.7% - 97.7% - 97.7% - 92.8%
    NOTE: it has been suggested that Version 2 is simply Version 1 with the level boosted by 6 dB. This has still to be determined.


    Version 3a
    [yes] - Target, West German : 79.5% - 66.9% - 64.6% - 100.0% - 86.4% - 66.6% - 95.1% - 91.3% - 88.9%
    [yes] - Vertigo, West German (Red Swirl) : 79.5% - 66.9% - 64.6% - 100.0% - 86.4% - 66.6% - 95.1% - 91.3% - 88.9%
    [Dave] – Vertigo 814 287-2, West German (Blue Swirl) : 79.5% - 66.9% - 64.6% - 100.0% - 86.4% - 66.6% - 95.1% - 91.3% - 88.9%

    Version 3b
    [yes] - V/C alternate w/modified Vertigo Swirl design : 79.5% - 66.9% - 75.6% - 100.0% - 86.4% - 66.6% - 95.1% - 91.3% - 88.9%
    NOTE: the only difference between versions 3a and 3b occurs in Track 3. From the comment below by 0880773 it would seem that this difference is caused by a difference in Track Start position.


    Version 4
    [yes] - Atlantic, US : 88.3% - 75.6% - 66.6% - 76.7% - 77.7% - 82.9% - 75.4% - 78.3% - 85.0%
    [5-string] - Atlantic A2-80116, US : 88.3% - 75.6% - 66.6% - 76.7% - 77.7% - 82.9% - 75.4% - 78.3% - 85.0%


    Version 5
    [yes] - Virgin VJCP-3118, Japan : 99.5% - 98.1% - 89.3% - 99.0% - 99.2% - 98.8% - 99.1% - 98.9% - 91.5%
    NOTE: Yesstiles writes: “Here's the data for the Virgin Japan issue of S/T which was released around the same time as the DEs. It actually has the same faceplate design as the DEs, so was obviously made to match them, but I don't believe it was actually re-mastered like those nor does it have artwork similar to the DEs.”


    Further comments from Yesstiles: “As you can see, some very different masterings here. Quite odd how many variations there are, and this excludes the Japan first issue and the blue vertigo swirl!

    There looks to be five different masterings, six to be technical. The WG Vertigo and WG Target are the same (I'm actually surprised at that). And the V/C alternate is the same as those two with the exception of Track 3 (Home by the Sea). That single track has values different than any others.”


    A comment from 0880773 in comparing the Atlantic to the Red Swirl: “One interesting tidbit, the disks have a different split point between Home By The Sea and Second Home By the Sea: USA Atlantic: 4:53/6:23; Red Swirl 5:08/6:09.”



    Invisible Touch

    There appear to be TWO (?) original masterings of this title.

    Version 1
    [Great] - Virgin GEN CD 2 (Matrix: 786360 2 @ 4), UK : 100.0% - 82.5% - 77.5% - 92.1% - 100.0% - 92.1% - 99.9% - 73.5%
    [Great] - Virgin GEN CD 2 (Matrix: 786360 2 @ 3), NL : 100.0% - 82.5% - 77.5% - 92.1% - 100.0% - 92.1% - 99.9% - 73.5%
    [Lazlo Nibble] - V/C 32VD-1023 (Matrix: 32VD-1023 1A2 TO), Japan (Black Triangle) : 100.0% - 82.5% - 77.5% - 92.1% - 100.0% - 92.1% - 99.9% - 73.5%


    Version 2
    [BE] - Atlantic 7 81641-2 (Matrix: 3 81641-2 SRC=12 M2S5), US WEA : 99.8% - 75.7% - 67.7% - 80.6% - 96.1% - 87.7% - 78.9% - 82.5%




    We Can’t Dance

    There appears to be ONE (?) original mastering of this title.

    Version 1
    [Great] - Virgin GEN CD 3 (Matrix: 786330 2 @ 3), NL : 97.3% - 97.3% - 97.3% - 97.3% - 97.3% - 97.3% - 97.3% - 97.3% - 97.2% - 97.3% - 97.3% - 97.3%
    [BE] - Atlantic 7 82344-2 (Matrix: ARC 3 82344-2 SRC=05 *M4 S3), US WEA : 97.3% - 97.3% - 97.3% - 97.3% - 97.3% - 97.3% - 97.3% - 97.3% - 97.2% (tracks 10 to 12 unreadable)



    The Way We Walk, Volume One: The Shorts
    The Way We Walk, Volume Two: The Longs

    No data available.
     
    jh901 likes this.
  17. GP

    GP Forum Resident

    Location:
    Lynbrook, NY
    Considering how Barry Diament was sometimes miscredited, this may mean nothing, but is it possible that the V/C Nimbus is Zal's mastering, or was the release of the Nimbus much earlier?

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover Thread Starter

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    From what I can determine, it seems that the V/C was earlier, please see: http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=3105777&postcount=22
     
  19. Jeff Carney

    Jeff Carney Fan Of Specifics (No Koolaid)

    Location:
    SF
    Just picked up this version of the first album:

    Jonjo Music JMCD4. I guess it's from Canada and was issued in 1990, at least according to the "Genesis Discography" website. It is a club pressing.

    EAC:

    84.8, 78.1, 70.5, 87.4, 70.2, 92.5, 71.8, 84.4, 96.5, 93.0, 94.2, 68.3, 92.6, 86.5, 48.6, 76.4, 79.6

    Here's a sample:

    http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=2CE02DA869EF222F
     
  20. Raf

    Raf Senior Member

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    This doesn't sync with either the DCC or the later CDs. Jeff, do you still have the London? Would you mind posting a sample of this track from it?
     
  21. Jeff Carney

    Jeff Carney Fan Of Specifics (No Koolaid)

    Location:
    SF
    Sure, will do.
     
  22. Jeff Carney

    Jeff Carney Fan Of Specifics (No Koolaid)

    Location:
    SF
  23. Raf

    Raf Senior Member

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
  24. Jeff Carney

    Jeff Carney Fan Of Specifics (No Koolaid)

    Location:
    SF
    Yeah, they sounded the same to me based on a very brief listen.

    Thanks!
     
  25. NowhereMan

    NowhereMan Forum Resident

    Location:
    NY
    Hi all Genesis fans!

    Question on "And Then There Were Three..."
    I have WG Target CD (19173-2), does it really sound inferior to V/C Nimbus ?
    I mean, should I look for V/C pressing or Target CD is fine?
     
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