Genesis' Foxtrot. What's the problem with the reissue?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by disraeli, Mar 3, 2015.

  1. tvstrategies

    tvstrategies Multicast is dead

    Location:
    WA 98391
    I did the same, on advice here, and am very happy with them. I also like Wind and Wuthering in a Sanyo pressing (which is hard to find but someone here sold to me), and a US Atco of Trick.

    http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threa...g-of-genesis-wind-and-wuthering.186962/page-3

    Here's a thread that compares the wave forms of samples!
    http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/genesis-early-cd-versions-thread-ver-2.149728/page-34
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2015
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  2. MaximilianRG

    MaximilianRG Forum Resident

    There are some different vocal takes used on this remix. For example, in Get 'Em Out By Friday, the whole lyric is a different take:

    Here we are in Harlowe New Town do you recognize your block across the square over there
    Sadly since last time we spoke we've found we've had to raise the rent again, just a bit


    And in Supper's Ready, the following lyric is a different vocal take and I suspect it might even be re-recorded:

    Fly away you sweet little thing they're hot on your tail
    They're going to change you into a human being


    The more familiar you are with the originals, the more disruptive these changes will be to your listening experience. People less familiar with these albums should be just fine with the remix/remasters.
     
  3. Super_Slick

    Super_Slick Forum Resident

    Location:
    Liverpool

    The big problem for me is the line....

    It's been a long long time ....., hasn't it?

    The timing of 'hasn't it' is all wrong. It may be a different take or just misplaced in the remix but it is simply annoying. How it was missed is anyone's guess.

    I have the v/c and the remix and enjoy them both.
     
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  4. MaximilianRG

    MaximilianRG Forum Resident

    Oh yeah, forgot about that one. That one doesn't bother me as much.
     
  5. Rne

    Rne Sufferin' succotash!

    Location:
    Malaver
    I have and old CD (Nimbus master), the '94 remaster and the 2007 remix. The first two are pretty similar, at least to my ears, and sound fine. The remix is simply horrible, harsh, compressed, extremely brittle, a guaranteed headache. The 5.1 mix is acceptable, but still too compressed for my taste.
    I like the '94 remasters, but a lot of people hate them.
     
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  6. MaximilianRG

    MaximilianRG Forum Resident

    I think it's all based on what version you heard first. Someone who was introduced to this album with the 2007 remix would probably hate any other mix. I'm glad I was not introduced to early Genesis with these remixes.
     
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  7. Rne

    Rne Sufferin' succotash!

    Location:
    Malaver
    I'm not so critical about the decisions taken during the remixing process per se, the trouble is that hideous mastering that pierces my eardrums.
     
  8. Classicrock

    Classicrock Forum Resident

    Location:
    South West, UK.
    I think the like /dislike of these is based on CD v Vinyl. The remixes I have (1976-) are generally fine on vinyl though some compression remains. I think the CD mastering may be more of a problem than the remixes. Fortunately I have the Classic Records for the earlier albums except Trespass. Charisma vinyl pressings were never great and the later reissues from later 80's (Virgin/ Charisma blue label) are not good sounding. May try Trespass at some stage.
     
  9. ponkine

    ponkine Forum Resident

    Listen to 'Supper's Ready' intro

    Original mix: "Walking across the sitting-room ..."

    New mix: "Walking across the ---ting-room ..."

    And add alternate vocal take at some points

    :thumbsdow:thumbsdow:thumbsdow:thumbsdow
     
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  10. The Zodiac

    The Zodiac God's Lonely Man

    I was good with the Definitive Edition Remaster disc for a while but then finally broke down and invested in a Charisma Nimbus disc and it's really wonderful sounding. And I prefer to hear 'Supper's Read'y with that tape drag slow down thingy, as on the original album. The remix.....sigh.... painful to listen to. The equivalent of having all five members come up to me and shout in my face simultaneously. And I didn't like the vocal revisionism, though I did kinda enjoy that little extra distant mellotron snuck into the final verse of "Time Table".
     
  11. Rne

    Rne Sufferin' succotash!

    Location:
    Malaver
    I've just checked this on Spotify (I'm at work) and that line sounds the same as the original mix. :confused:
     
  12. Rne

    Rne Sufferin' succotash!

    Location:
    Malaver
    Gee, I've compared those two using headphones and can't tell the big difference in terms of sound quality!
     
  13. Alternative4

    Alternative4 Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Zealand
    I was introduced to Genesis through the remixes. I can't say I hate the originals, but I do not like the original Foxtrot. The copy I have sounds muddy, unclear and lifeless. If this is the sound people have had for 40 years, I can therefore see why people say the new mix is clinical. BTW 90% of the time I listen to the 5.1 mix.

    I also have an original vinyl copy of SEBTP and from memory I like its dynamics. Something that is missing from the remix. I however probably enjoy the remix more. Stupidly I passed on EMI 100th issue of this album. Which I suspect would have tipped me in favor of the original mixes.
     
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  14. Classicrock

    Classicrock Forum Resident

    Location:
    South West, UK.
    Reissues of Foxtrot sound poor but the original Pink Hatter might be fine. They tend to be too pricey now. Again depends if people are talking CD or Vinyl of the 'remix'. The ones I have heard aren't drastically different but some may be focusing too much on minor detail. Why revise something drastically and use different vocals unless the master tapes are shot?
     
  15. The Zodiac

    The Zodiac God's Lonely Man

    I was introduced to Foxtrot via cassette tape 28 years ago! Clearly this has tainted my ability to tell what is good and bad. That said the old vinyl still kicks butt. In fact, I played my DJ promo copy of "The Lamb" last week and bathed in the wonderful sound. Warm, comfy bass embraced my like a cuckoo cocoon. And my "Foxtrot" on pink Charisma label is a beauty. Even though I like the Nimbus discs best (mostly), they still can't deliver the full-bodied magical flavor of the old vinyl. IMO.
     
  16. ponkine

    ponkine Forum Resident

    The word "sitting" is clearly more pronounced on the original mix.
    On the remix is almost like if there were a momentary cut on the vocal tape.

    And from 1:21 to 1:58 there's an ALTERNATE PETER VOCAL



    :shake:
     
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  17. MaximilianRG

    MaximilianRG Forum Resident

    You're right. I think the guitar in that section is also different.
     
  18. kwadguy

    kwadguy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cambridge, MA
    Of those who have never heard the album, I imagine most would like the remix/reissue, and probably a lot would prefer it (ignoring any compression and/or audiophile-type issues).

    If you are already familiar with the original mix, you are going to find the new mix to be fairly revisionist, and whether you like that depends on how open you are to that sort of thing.
     
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  19. CybrKhatru

    CybrKhatru Music is life.

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    +1.
     
  20. Victor/Victrola

    Victor/Victrola Makng shure its write

    My two Charisma Japanese vinyl pressings from the late 70's are so-so. One has quite a bit of surface noise and the other is quiet, but neither are sonic wonders. The pink US Charisma sounds ok. Probably the best sounding vinyl is a US Charisma repackage of Foxtrot with Nursery Chryme as a double album. I have the original Virgin CD which is pretty good and the 2007 remaster/remix which I don't like much. However, this album isn't the best as far as sound quality goes anyway, so I'd say anything that sounds halfway decent is the one to go for.
     
  21. Merrick

    Merrick The return of the Thin White Duke

    Location:
    Portland
    I was introduced to Genesis with the DE issues, and I still think they sound good, but not the best. My dad had several of the Gabriel-era Genesis records (and I think Trick of the Tail) on vinyl that he handed down to me, all of them are US 1st issues IIRC. They sound good but noisy, part of that may be that my dad didn't take the best care with all of his vinyl.

    I ended up buying all the remix box sets, not realizing the albums were remixed, so once I discovered that I went and tracked down the original mixes in better quality. I think the Classic Records sound great, and after that it's a mix of US and UK issues.
     
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  22. kwadguy

    kwadguy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cambridge, MA

    The original Charisma/Buddah pressings were often on low rent vinyl, as was Buddah's MO...

    The 2-fer US reissue was during the very short lived Charisma/Polygram distribution agreement, after Buddah went bankrupt. One assumes they got access to the original master tapes for this reissue. Polygram pressings were generally of good quality.

    After that, the albums went to Atlantic in the US (where they remain).
     
  23. Classicrock

    Classicrock Forum Resident

    Location:
    South West, UK.
    Just played the Classic Records version of Foxtrot and this sounds very good. Still in many ways my least favourite Gabriel Genesis. Frankly Suppers Ready is good in parts but verges on the self indulgent/ridiculous. Definitely some changes in the new mix -not clear why the revisionism unless Tony Banks was never satisfied with the original. Some people may prefer the new mix but of course if you are familiar with the original it's not right.
     
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  24. kwadguy

    kwadguy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cambridge, MA

    The band was never happy with the mixes of any of those early albums--they were all done on a tight budget, very quickly.

    Whether the new mixes are an improvement is left as an exercise for the reader.
     
  25. G E

    G E Forum Resident

    I have Foxtrot on US Buddah vinyl and a German one as well. Also have the SACD version.

    I don't really like any of them - but each has their attractions.

    The German pressing is on very quiet vinyl. The mastering is lower than my US copy. I don't care much for the presentation on side 1: flat and lifeless. The other side fares better

    My US copy I got within a couple months of its initial release. I like its sonics more than the German version but it is noisier. There are some passages I prefer the German copy, mainly on Suppers Ready.

    The SACD FoxTrot is probably the best sounding off the Gabriel Genesis box but it still isn't good. And there are some mixing choices that disrupt my memories of the original.

    bTW, I have Lamb on Classics vinyl, I think it's on 200g. I much prefer my 4-sided Porky us Atco original. It just sounds so much more organic.

    The Classic reminds of the SACD sonic signature and that is not a good thing.
     
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