I was nervous because i have come across militant anti-collins fans in other places ... and it irks me, and i lose my cool lol
Banks rubs me as the least likable of the band members as an individual, and this probably makes me view him in a bit of a negative light. However, there's no denying that he has been, along with Collins, the most important musical contributor in the band. To me, he's been responsible for some of the band's best AND worst music (though it is hard to know who wrote what on the early albums) as well as some of their best AND worst lyrics, and lyrics are essential to my enjoyment of rock music. Without good lyrics, I can't really like a song or take it very seriously. ATTWT has what I consider one of Banks' (and Genesis') best songs in "Burning Rope" and possibly one of his (and Genesis') worst in "The Lady Lies", and the lyrics are a large part of my appreciation (or lack thereof) of each. We'll get to that album in time, though. On W&W, I think "Afterglow", like "A Trick of the Tail" on the album prior, is a Banks highlight, while "One For The Vine" has some nice moments but doesn't grab me the way other Genesis epics do, either musically or lyrically. Compared to the previous album's "Mad Man Moon", it seems quite lacking. I've already made fun of "All in a Mouse's Night" upthread. I do think that the band's conscious effort to write more concise material starting with the next album was greatly beneficial to Banks' songwriting. It reined in his worst excesses and provided him with some focus. I've generally felt that his compositions on the next few albums (with the one notable exception on ATTWT that I already mentioned) are the best of the solo writing contributions from each member.
One of the first Genesis albums I owned, probably bought it back in about 1978, after discovering the band with A Trick of the Tail. There's some very good songs on this album, but definitely some weak points as well. Eleventh Earl of Mar is a good song, but nothing special. Some very nice parts of the song, but overall leaves me wanting more. One for the Vine is one of my favorite Tony Banks songs ever, and most of my favorite Genesis songs are Tony songs. So many different sections to this song, and they all work. While Tony isn't as flashy as guys like Emerson or Wakeman, he is a master composer. The guitar solo lead at the end of this song is incredible. The next part of the album is the part that I can do without. Your Own Special Way does absolutely nothing for me (which is true of virtually every song Mike has ever written. He can talk all he wants about Tony's inability to write hits, which may be true, but at least Tony can write interesting music). The verses are fine, but the chorus is terrible, as is the transition from verse to chorus. Wot Gorilla is okay, but utterly forgettable. All In a Mouse's Night is a rare Tony Banks song that doesn't click with me. Things go back up, way up, from that point on. Blood On the Rooftops is a classic. Sounds nothing like any previous Genesis song, but I love it. Unquiet Slumber for the sleepers is ok, but when it transitions to In That Quiet Earth, all hell breaks loose....in a good way. One of Steve's best compositions. Afterglow is incredibly moving, although the studio version pales in comparison to the subsequent live versions. This is the last Genesis album that I could just lose myself within. The future albums all had some good songs, but nothing that could transport me.
First post in this thread - which has been GREAT, by the way, in that people are more upfront about their opinions being subjective and not absolute (with a few exceptions!). I love discussion of music that shows the listeners to be engaged and passionate, as opposed to armchair criticism that suggests not really listening deeply. Thanks, Mark W, et al! "Wind and Wuthering", with its long songs and evocative cover art, belies a certain "autumnal" or "wintery" feel (actually a few Genesis albums have this). For me, Genesis' best albums transport the listener to other times and/or places. This album doesn't disappoint me in that regard! The Mellotron playing of Tony is why I love this album so much - from Eleventh Earl, to One for the Vine's last verse (WOW!), to the stunningly beautiful Blood On the Rooftops. Yes, there are weaker songs, but they fit their sides well - remember, sequencing a side of music was very important in those days! As usual, it's too much music to cut accurately for vinyl and LP pressings struggle valiantly to capture all this great music; and there is no Classic, MFSL, or other audiophile pressing of the original mix out there. Those that have good LP copies (I have at least three) are on the eternal quest to find the best digital version, which I don't believe really exists. A good UK, or German, or even Canadian copy of this on vinyl has always done me right. And I sympathize with Hackett here - though Tony had the most band-voted material, and Steve was disappointed in Please Don't Touch being rejected, Wot Gorilla IMHO is not as good as Inside and Out. With the latter track's great ending with the band really going for it instrumentally and the riveting solo (an almost Jimmy Page-like lead, I thought, when I first heard it!) this would have been more welcome. But the problem is - too many cooks, and too many good songs! Heck - I think Pigeons is funny and uses the fuzz bass tone from Mike wonderfully, along with the one-note approach from Steve that somehow works (almost) over all those changing chords! For this reason and others, I can't think of "Wind and Wuthering" without considering its little brother, the"Spot the Pigeon" EP. And what right minded band would keep releasing EP's as artistic statements in the '70's and into the '80's - GENESIS, that's who! Crazy. Another thing that has been pointed out from "Trick of the Tail" and this album too - sometimes the live versions are better! The Mellotron choir in Afterglow comes to mind, as well as Your Own Special Way, which kinda seems longish on the LP but probably not so much in concert with the lights and Mike's 12-string (?) acoustic part carrying it. Anyway - thank you all for reminding me of why I love this band so much! And thank you, Steve Hackett, for keeping the prog fire burning brightly. Cheers! Carry on.
Totally agree with all of this, so instead of restating it, I'll just quote it, and then add to it. 'Special' would be far better/more tolerable at half the length. There was a youtube video of someone playing the edited 45rpm single version of it, and it just works far better at that length (3.5 or so minutes rather than the 6+ minutes length of the album version - which was a pop song unnecessarily stretched to the length of a prog song). Imagine if 'Follow You Follow Me' lasted over six minutes - or Misunderstanding! Gorilla, in addition to being 'Brand X light', its also a lesser version of the great 'Los Endos' from the previous album. Mouse as a 'Tom & Jerry song' - yes! I've made that point several times when the Wind & Wuthering album comes up for discussion. I can't hear the song without making that connection, and it nearly ruins the song for me. BTW I don't hate any of the above three songs, but I consider them "just OK" (and easily skippable) as opposed the "very very good" Earl and Vine, and the "absolutely brilliant" run of tracks from Blood to Afterglow. For me this album is the second most uneven Genesis album after SEBTP which ranged widely from absolute top notch brilliance (Cinema and Firth) to near crap (More Fool Me and Ordeal).
Excellent point regarding Tony Banks' lyrics. While I like a lot of the songs that he wrote in the group, he is easily one of the worst lyricists in rock music imo.
Indeed. If there is such a thing as "the lost Genesis album", it's A Curious Feeling. (Shouts "It's a curious feeling!"). To me it sounds more Genesis than many later Genesis albums.
I first heard Wind and Wuthering the day my brother bought home a copy the day after it was released - we believe firmly that this was 18 December 1976, hence the release date was 17 December 1976. There is at least one music paper clipping which reports the release date as 1 January 1977 but we definitely had this album before Christmas. Anyhow, the album was an instant hit in our house, very easy to absorb and as others have said it has a Autumnal/Wintery feel to it, which is one of its charms. However, I have to say that despite loving the album from the get-go it was definitely the point at which I felt Genesis were becoming a tad predictable. The point where the drums come crashing back in after the quiet section of Eleventh Earl of Mar I recall anticipating this on the very first listen but on the other hand, aged 14, as I was still growing in my admiration for this band, I kind of preferred, at that age, the comfort of knowing that Genesis were doing the sort of stuff that I liked. Favourite bits of this album for me are One For the Vine and Blood on the Rooftops which remain firmly in my Top 25 Genesis tracks. Rooftops might even be Top 10. Initially I wasn't too much of a fan of Afterglow but many years later when Banks explained the meaning of it, it made more sense to me. Not such a fan of Mouse's Night although it isn't to be taken seriously - probably prefer it to Robbery on Trick which it feels similar to in my view. I bought Your Own Special Way on 7" to get the non album track It's Yourself and a few months later the Spot the Pigeon EP at which point I was probably peaking as a Genesis fan - things were never quite this good again for me despite carrying the flag past the follow up album but we'll come to that soon enough.
I was going to leave it until later to comment on Mouse's Night, but since so many have already done so, I feel motivated to chime in: This song is pompous, pretentious, and silly... and I love it. I have no problem whatsoever with the lyrics. Musically it is somewhat lightweight - until near the very end, when it becomes seriously proggy. Those ponderous chords that follow "It only took one blow" elevate the song from "fairly good" to "great". I rank them alongside the Rick Wakeman organ frenzy in "Close to the Edge" among rock's greatest keyboard moments.
think I posted this list but maybe some missed it I dont know if its correct, and sorry to say, dont have a clue where I got it from. But it was from either this forum or the Progressive ears. Trespass: Looking For Someone (Banks, Gabriel, Phillips, Rutherford) White Mountain (Phillips, Rutherford) Visions Of Angels (Phillips) Stagnation (Phillips, Banks, Rutherford, Gabriel) Dusk (Phillips, Rutherford) The Knife (Banks, Gabriel, Rutherford, Phillips) Nursery Cryme: The Musical Box (Phillips, Rutherford, Banks, Gabriel) For Absent Friends (Hackett, Collins) The Return Of The Giant Hogweed (Banks, Gabriel, Hackett, Rutherford, Collins) Seven Stones (Banks) Harold The Barrel (Gabriel, Banks) Harlequin (Rutherford, Banks) The Fountain Of Salmacis (Banks, Gabriel, Collins, Hackett, Rutherford) Foxtrot: Watcher Of The Skie (Banks, Rutherford) Time Table (Banks) Get 'Em Out By Friday (Banks, Gabriel, Rutherford, Hackett, Collins) Can-Utility And The Coastliners (Hackett, Banks) Horizons (Hackett) Supper's Ready: a. Lover's Leap (Banks, Gabriel) b. The Guaranteed Eternal Sanctuary Man (Banks, Gabriel) c. Ikhnaton and Itsacon and Their Band of Merry Men (Rutherford, Banks, Gabriel) d. How Dare I Be So Beautiful? (Gabriel, Banks) e. Willow Farm (Gabriel) f. Apocalypse in 9/8 (featuring the delicious talents of Gabble Ratchet) (Banks, Collins, Rutherford, Gabriel) g. As Sure as Eggs is Eggs (Aching Men's Feet) (Banks, Gabriel) Selling England By The Pound: Dancing With The Moonlit Knight (Hackett, Banks, Gabriel, Rutherford, Collins) I Know What I Like (In Your Wardrobe) (Hackett, Banks, Gabriel) Firth Of Fifth (Banks) More Fool Me (Rutherford, Collins) The Battle Of Epping Forest (Banks, Gabriel, Rutherford, Collins) After The Ordeal (Hackett, Rutherford) The Cinema Show (Banks, Rutherford, Collins, Hackett, Gabriel) Aisle Of Plenty (Gabriel, Hackett) The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway: The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway (Banks, Gabriel) Fly on a Windshield (Hackett, Banks, Collins, Gabriel) Broadway Melody of 1974 (Gabriel, Banks, Rutherford) Cuckoo Cocoon (Hackett, Gabriel) In the Cage (Banks, Gabriel, Rutherford, Collins, Hackett) The Grand Parade of Lifeless Packaging (Gabriel, Banks, Rutherford) Back in N.Y.C. (Rutherford, Banks, Gabriel) Hairless Heart (Hackett) Counting Out Time (Gabriel) The Carpet Crawlers (Banks, Rutherford, Gabriel) The Chamber of 32 Doors (Gabriel, Banks) Lillywhite Lilith (Collins, Banks, Rutherford, Gabriel) The Waiting Room (Hackett, Collins, Banks, Rutherford, Gabriel) Anyway (Banks, Gabriel) The Supernatural Anaesthetist (Hackett, Gabriel) The Lamia (Banks, Gabriel) Silent Sorrow in Empty Boats (Rutherford, Banks, Collins, Hackett, Gabriel) Colony of Slippermen (Banks, Gabriel, Rutherford, Collins, Hackett) Ravine (Rutherford, Banks) The Light Dies Down on Broadway (Banks, Rutherford) Riding the Scree (Banks, Collins, Gabriel) In the Rapids (Rutherford, Banks, Gabriel) It. (Banks, Gabriel, Hackett, Rutherford, Collins)
IMHO, here is how to rescue W&W: Side A 1. Eleventh Earl of Mar 2. One for the Vine 3. Inside and Out Side B: 4. Pigeons 5. Blood on the Rooftops 6. Unquiet ... 7. ... Earth 8. Afterglow. You're welcome. Carry on, lads.
There is also the rather unfortunate juxtaposition of "Pigeons" and "Blood on the Rooftops", considering that "Pigeons" is about something else on the rooftops.
Eleventh Earl Of Mar "Eleventh Earl of Mar" refers to the historical figure of John Erskine, Earl of Mar, a Scottish Jacobite.[16] The first line of the song, "The sun had been up for a couple of hours, covered the ground with a layer of gold", is the opening line of the novel The Flight of the Heron by D. K. Broster. Rutherford, who wrote the song's lyrics,[9] got the idea after reading a "history book about a failed Scottish rising ... around 1715".[9] --------------------------------------- This track starts with a very Genesis sounding Guitar and Keyboard doubled melody, and it sounds great. Then Hackett does some swooping slides that lead into the start of the song proper. You can hear that Banks has a new synth or a new sound on his synth here, but I don't personally find that off putting. I think it broadens the bands palette, and after seven years and seven albums, that's probably a good thing. I think Collins vocals work well on this track. I like the uptempo feel and also that the rhythm is so irrepressible. We get a couple of rhythm changes, but not in such a way as to stop the songs momentum. Lyrically we are given the story of the Earl seemingly marching down to London to overthrow the King one suspects. Anyhow, here we get a really nice harmonised Hackett lead break that moves back into the piano synth double up that we have had through the song and at about 3:55 the tempo dies of and we get a reflective section the keyboards bring us down and slide low in the mix. We get some acoustic guitars and keyboards playing a mellow phrase that works well. I'm not exactly sure, but I get the impression that the Earl meets his maker in this section. I'm fighting gravity falling My Daddy won't let them get me A voice screams seems to be calling The face turns features are burning. Daddy, you've got to go! See the fifteen going by, Tell the Lairds and the Lords They're running backwards today, And once again you stand alone. I am also not sure why (lyrically) he keeps calling out about his daddy, unless of course he is doing this deed to try and honour his Father's name or something. To be honest before reading the lyrics, I had always assumed this song was about a spoiled, naughty little boy playing up because of his rich background and privilege. Anyway ... The music take a dramatic turn here ("The face turns, features are burning") and we move back into the main musical theme ("Daddy, you've got to go"). We build back up into the end where everything slides back into the intro, but the intro itself is actually reversed in structure... It's a very nice effect. I never used to really think too much of this song, but I also never really spent enough time in this album. As I have stated before, I have realised I had a tendency to reach for certain albums all the time and too many of the bands albums would sit awaiting their turn. Having given this album its due attention, I find this song to actually be quite engrossing, much more so than my initial fractured listens would have suggested. There is some excellent vocal phrasing and musical arrangement. All in all, this track is another winner for me and an excellent start to the album.
I'm yet to hear the 3 track EP, but this series of listens have made this album grow in stature a lot for me. I actually enjoy it quite a lot as it is. I understand that it may not work for some though. There is a certain mellow sheen on a lot of these late seventies albums, that seems to not work for some folks. I think that mellow feel is most prominent on this album, but in re-listening to it, and possibly the fact that I am older and more mellow myself, I find it to actually be a really good listen.
I never understood the lyrics of this song, specifically how the "Oh Daddy, you promised" fits in with what seems to be the story of a failed Scottish rebellion. Perhaps the significance is explained in the book that Rutherford took for inspiration. ------------------------ Regarding the tracks from Spot the Pigeon, even though W&W is by no means perfect as is, I would not have replaced any of the songs by tracks from this EP. "Match of the Day" is boring generic pop; "Pigeons" is (unsurprisingly) shit, and "Inside And Out" is OK, it's quite a good song but seems at times a little overbearing, trying too hard to be "prog". It would perhaps have fit well enough on Duke or a later album, but not so much on an album like W&W.
Agreed. I have albums (by Miles Davis, Todd Rundgren) with over 30 minutes of music on each side and the sound kicks asses. I don't know how it's possible, but it is.
Eleventh Earl Of Mar Lots of Hackett goodness (the double-tracked solo, the acoustic section) but the chorus seems to be tripping over itself IMHO. Excellent fills from Phil throughout. --Geoff
I love the way this song opens at half-mast (volume wise) and rises as it goes into the beginning chords of the first verse. I haven't a clue what the song is about, except for the portion starting at 3:55 deals with having a dream. The crescendo starting at 5:44 and ending at 6:06 is one of my favorite sections on any Genesis album. Excellent opener.
There are portions of the lyrics I just don't get, but contrary to the Gabriel's ones I don't feel captured enough to want to go deeper. They seem pretty scholastic and formulaic. Anyway, it really seems it's a kid speaking. A little one, that has to go to bed while still thinking of great battles. Other times, it seems an objective narrator, 3rd person. So maybe it is the earl's son perspective (he promised to win the battle but he's failing his sons expectations?) alternated to a more objective tale of the events of the rising. As wikipedia says "as a general he was a failure". The I'm falling part is the second bit of the Time to go to bed section and I think refers to the kid falling asleep and having nightmares of the battle's crudeness. The Earl didn't die in the rising. He escaped to France. -- Overall, I get the sense the song is in the try-too-hard department, prog for the sake of being prog, structured for the sake of being structured... you got the point. It well represents the sense of decadent prog I have from the full album. Which is not meant in a bad way, I was born decadent. The youthful freshness is gone, replaced by maturity and a little bit of mannerism. It doesn't sound fresh, nor spontaneous, as the equally (if not more) complicated Moonlight Knight did. Performance is at the top, especially Steve's on nylon strings, sound is more layered and harmonies sound more "dirty". I think it was a sign of the times, the expression of prog not being a fresh genre anymore. I get this feeling from "late prog" records from other artists, as PFM for example (who flirted more with jazz as they went on). The other songs work better for me though, while this has always left me a little cold.
