He talks somewhere about Phil developing more of a rocker's "rasp" in his voice as time went on that helped with singing more aggressive material. There was definitely a trade off with Phil... he got more confident and powerful and his voice developed more of a sharp edge.... but then his style also became more mannered as time went on and his pop singer persona developed. On Seconds Out his treatment of the Peter material is a little polite, but at least he doesn't distort the songs too much with unwelcome improv and "soulful" interjections. He generally does well, though I would agree with Peter that he doesn't really perform the lyrics, he's just singing the words.
Fun fact, the band actually refused to do Supper’s Ready at first during the 1976 tour, as they weren’t confident enough in their ability to pull the piece off without Gabriel. Thankfully, they were wrong.
It's funny but that's exactly why I like Phil's renditions better than Gabriel's. I feel like Gabriel overdid it sometimes with "performing" the lyrics. Although, yeah, not a big fan of the "down, down, down".
so true on all points ... I have had to do it, and although certainly not an arena filling major act, the wear and tear and the confidence and all the rest of it is quite exhausting.
Yeah you have to hand it to them, as much as the piece is identified with Peter, they did great versions of it, as heard here (I think this version is better than the Rainbow live recording from 1973).
I’d say that the term “refused” is little over the top. After all, it’s obvious that the performance was prepared and rehearsed for the tour, and it was only the first two or three gigs where it was left out of the set list, based upon the info I’ve run across. Maybe they just weren’t quite satisfied with it in rehearsals and still needed to work out a few kinks. I have serious doubts that they had issues of confidence without Peter for only that one piece. They were respectable musicians who played the song many times in the past, and Peter played no part in that end of the performance. I suspect that it was mainly an issue of allowing Phil to get comfortable and confident as the frontman before they included that heavy, long piece into the set list.
Fun fact There's a full bootleg of the second concert with Collins on vocals, however the first concert has zero material recorded at all, well circulating anyway. As a fan I really wish that existed for historical purposes. He's shy enough on the second gig.
No! - Phil declined/chose not to (or possibly flat-out *refused* - I guess...but I highly doubt it) to perform it on the earliest dates of his first tour as lead singer due to a lack of confidence. Why would "the band" refuse to perform it? Who was trying to force them to do it against their collective will? Phil told the guys he didn't yet feel up to it, and they accommodated him, allowing him to get a few successful shows under his belt before taking on that particular additional challenge.
My apologies for my misuse of a word, I didn’t realize there was such a drastic difference between “refuse” and “decide not to”. I’ll make sure to pay much closer attentiom so as not to ruffle the feathers of all of two people haha. In all seriousness though, I see where your point lies, and though I see it as mere symantics, I see where the confusion could stem from.
...And Then There Were Three... Studio album by Genesis Released 31 March 1978 Recorded September–October 1977 Studio Relight Studios (Hilvarenbeek, Netherlands) Genre Pop rock[1] Length 53:27 Label Charisma Producer David Hentschel, Genesis Singles from ...And Then There Were Three... "Follow You Follow Me" Released: March 1978[2] "Many Too Many" Released: June 1978[2] ...And Then There Were Three... is the ninth studio album by the English rock band Genesis. It was released in March 1978 by Charisma Records and is their first recorded as a trio of singer/drummer Phil Collins, keyboardist Tony Banks, and bassist/guitarist Mike Rutherford following the departure of guitarist Steve Hackett. The album marked a change in the band's sound, mixing elements of their progressive rock roots with shorter material, and Collins contributing to more of the group's songwriting. The album reached No. 3 on the UK Albums Chart and No. 14 on the US Billboard 200. The lead single "Follow You Follow Me" became their highest charting at that point, reaching No. 7 in the UK and No. 23 in the US. The album was certified platinum by the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA) in 1988 for selling one million copies in the US. To further promote it, Genesis toured worldwide with their new live guitarist Daryl Stuermer. The album was remixed in 2007 as part of the Genesis 1976–1982 box set in 5.1 surround sound and a new stereo mix by Nick Davis. In July 1977, the Genesis line-up of singer and drummer Phil Collins, keyboardist Tony Banks, bassist Mike Rutherford, guitarist Steve Hackett, and touring drummer Chester Thompson completed their tour in support of their eighth studio album, Wind & Wuthering. The band proceeded to edit and mix their second live album, Seconds Out, in August 1977, during which time Hackett left the band as he wished to pursue a solo career.[3] He had enjoyed producing his first solo album Voyage of the Acolyte, disliked musical compromises in Genesis and felt more comfortable working as a solo artist. Since Genesis had now played Madison Square Garden, Hackett felt the group had run out of things to do.[4] Hackett's departure was not made public until 8 October, when Collins, Banks, and Rutherford were promoting Seconds Out (and had finished working on ...And Then There Were Three...).[5] The trio were confident they could carry on, as they had formed the backbone of several Genesis classics, including the "Apocalypse in 9/8" section of "Supper's Ready", the instrumental part of "The Cinema Show" and the basics of A Trick of the Tail (written while Hackett was working on his first solo album).[6] Rehearsals began at Shepperton Studios for around six weeks.[7] In September 1977, the remaining three members returned to Relight Studios in Hilvarenbeek, Netherlands to write and record their new album, the same as Wind & Wuthering.[8][9][10] The group wished to record in a new location, but they could not find a studio that fitted their needs and did not wish to travel too far from England. Rutherford wished to remain in London, but noted recording abroad was their "one tax concession".[9] Joining the group was audio engineer and co-producer David Hentschel who had worked on the band's past two albums. Genesis also shared production duties and are credited on the album's sleeve.[8] According to Rutherford, the material was recorded in two weeks.[9] The band considered auditioning new guitarists or utilising a studio guitarist for the album, but Rutherford felt confident enough in his skills to take on the lead guitar parts himself, feeling he would enjoy the challenge of doing so.[9][6] Banks noticed recording as a three-member band was an easier and more pleasurable experience than before as each member had a clearly defined role, which reduced the risk of personnel clashes along the way.[3][10] Rutherford became aware that with three members, the basic tracks came across as sparse and not so easy to understand until the overdubs were recorded on top of them.[9] Following the recording, the group mixed the album at Trident Studios in London.[8] Banks and Rutherford remained the more dominant songwriters with four and three songs written by them respectively, one from Banks and Collins, and three tracks written by all three members.[11] Collins had settled down with his wife and two children in South Ealing, meaning he did not find much time to bring new compositions to the sessions.[12] Rutherford later said he was impressed the group wrote "Follow You Follow Me", as they had had difficulty writing songs that worked within a 3-4 minute framework.[13] The majority of the album was formed of pre-written songs, not ones developed from jams and improvisations.[10]Collins later thought the album lacked "rich, jazzy pieces" like "Los Endos" from A Trick of the Tail with its merge of rhythm and melody,[14] but could not contribute such ideas as it was difficult to play the drums in his flat in Ealing with his wife and two children.[15][16] The group were still growing in popularity in the United States and did not have a hit single, which Banks later admitted was a struggling point for them.[3] The original album track order swapped "Undertow" with "Many Too Many" and "Scenes from a Night's Dream", before it was changed as the band felt it flowed better.[9] As with their past three studio albums, the album cover and packaging was designed by Storm Thorgerson and Aubrey Powell of Hipgnosis. Thorgerson later said the cover was "trying to tell a story by the traces left by the light trails". The photograph was shot using time-lapse to represent the "comings and goings" in the album's lyrics, and over the change in personnel.[17] In an April 1978 review for Melody Maker, reporter Chris Welch praised the album as "strong, confident" that is "as good as any they have made in the band's post-Gabriel years". Welch noted the songs have "a sense of purpose" and come with "a remarkably powerful sound", and picked "Ballad of Big" as his favourite track.[37] A review in The Town Talkpraised the group for filling the gap Hackett left "confidently" and picks "Down and Out" as claim of their survival. The rest of the album is "a tapestry of imaginary landscapes filled with the struggling mythic heroes that Genesis has learned to depict so well".[38] Gary Mullinax for The Morning News thought the album sounded little different to Wind & Wutheringand noted the dominance of Banks's keyboards over Rutherford's guitars, with "the same dreamy all-of-sound music with the same high-pitched vocals" from Collins. He concluded that Genesis succeed at points on the album but thought many songs on it fail to go anywhere, "blending into one another like some sort of hip musak".[39] Charley Walters, writing in Circus, said that despite the exits of Gabriel and Hackett, Genesis have sacrificed "neither direction nor quality". The album, he thought, has "hard, almost ominous" tracks like "Down and Out" and "softer, more melodic" ones like "Say It's Alright Joe", all of which create "a magical, mystical sound that sets them apart from the numerous similar but usually inferior European art-rock ensembles". He names Banks as the one of the trio most responsible for their sound with his "rich" arrangements complemented by Rutherford's restrained guitar work which is "more felt than heard" which worked well to his praise on "Burning Rope". Walters, however, thought Collins's vocals has shortcomings that lacks expansion or breathtaking moments, though is a drummer who can still be melodic.[40]Crawdaddy published a more critical review from Michael Bloom, who somewhat was critical of Banks's weak sounding arrangements and keyboard sounds as they tend to "practically vanish" and "slip through your fingers", but picked out "The Lady Lies" as his strongest contribution both musically and lyrically, comparing the composition and lyrical message to "One for the Vine" on Wind & Wuthering. Bloom declared Rutherford's lead guitar playing as "unbearably clumsy" compared to Hackett but remains a "rare bassist" whose 12-string guitar playing reminded the reviewer of Rutherford on Trespass (1970) and the surrounding period in the band's history. Bloom picked "Deep in the Motherlode" as a strong track, but pointed Collins's singing as "uninformly insipid", and concludes with the album is "less of a disappointment than an interminable frustration".[41] Genesis embarked on the ...And Then There Were Three... Tour between March and December 1978, including nearly 100 shows covering Europe, the US and Japan, with only a single UK show at Knebworth Park on 24 June.[1] The US dates were important as they would allow the band to recoup touring costs, which were running at around $25,000 a day.[1] The group needed an additional touring member to cover all the material, but Rutherford only wanted to play lead guitar on the new songs from ...And Then There Were Three... and return to bass and twelve-string for everything else. The successful applicant would have to play bass on the new material and cover Hackett's old lead parts.[27] They first approached Weather Report's Alphonso Johnson, but he was primarily a bassist and his style did not fit in with the rest of the band. Johnson suggested instead that they consider jazz-fusion guitarist Daryl Stuermer, who was already a Genesis fan. He tried out an audition in New York, playing bass on "Down and Out" and lead guitar on "Squonk" (from A Trick of the Tail) and was immediately hired.[27] "The Fountain of Salmacis", the closing track from 1971's Nursery Cryme was reintroduced into the live set, so Stuermer could take a song with a distinctive Hackett solo and put his own stamp on it.[42] "Say It's Alright Joe" was performed with Collins in character wearing a raincoat and using Banks' keyboards as a makeshift bar.[16]The tour had several breaks so the band could have time with their family at home. Collins later said the tour was "an end of an era" and thought the group did not need to play live as much in the future.[42] Genesis Tony Banks – keyboards Phil Collins – drums, percussion, vocals Mike Rutherford – basses, guitars Production Genesis – production David Hentschel – production, engineer Pierre Geofroy Chateau – production assistant Steve Short – mixing assistant Geoff Banks – equipment Andy Mackrill – equipment Dale Newman – equipment Hipgnosis – sleeve design, photographs Side one 1. "Down and Out" Phil Collins, Tony Banks, Mike Rutherford 5:25 2. "Undertow" Banks 4:47 3. "Ballad of Big" Collins, Banks, Rutherford 4:47 4. "Snowbound" Rutherford 4:30 5. "Burning Rope" Banks 7:07 Side two 1. "Deep in the Motherlode" Rutherford 5:14 2. "Many Too Many" Banks 3:30 3. "Scenes from a Night's Dream" Collins, Banks 3:30 4. "Say It's Alright Joe" Rutherford 4:18 5. "The Lady Lies" Banks 6:05 6. "Follow You Follow Me" Rutherford, Banks, Collins 3:59 Genesis recorded two additional songs that were left off the album, and released as B-sides.[9] 1. "The Day the Light Went Out" Banks 3:18 2. "Vancouver" Collins, Rutherford 3:01 ------------------------------------------------------- Personally I think this album is magnificent. For me it is a big step forward from Trick and Wind. Although some of the tracks may start off softly, the songs on this album tend to have a bit more b@lls and for me they tend to have a strong sound and feel. I'm not sure how much of that comes from a need to prove they could do this without Hackett's guitar, or if it is just coincidence, but to me, this album rocks more than anything the band had done since the Lamb. I know for some reason the general Genesis fan seems to think this album is a disappointment, but I really don't understand that at all. As I think I have stated, this along with Nursery Cryme was my first Genesis album, and I really liked both album and in reality these albums made me more open to music with keyboards, because really before getting these I was guitar all the way, and get those wimpy keyboards out of here. Although to some degree the guitar is more simplistic here, it is very effective and does just what it needs to do. Rutherford did some great work putting sympathetic guitar tracks to Tony's keyboard pieces and the whole picture was that of a great batch of songs that really came together well, Anyhow, I know nobody is that bothered about what I think, so What do you think about this record? When did you first get it? What did you think about it then? Has your opinion of it changed over the years? Let us know everything that comes to mind about this album an we'll hit the first, magnificent song tomorrow/ Cheers Mark
I love this album. Possibly my favourite Genesis album. Snowbound is magnificent and I love the mix of prog and pop that the band came up with. Although I remember FYFM getting in the charts, and liking it, I didn’t buy the parent album until 1980 when I got my first job and had some money to burn. Was into it after the first play and over the years worked back through
My cheap and easy 2 cents to start - not at all my favorite Genesis. Probably only IT and FGTR rank below it for me. To me, Phil's vocals matured on the next two albums. Side two does little for me in the first 4 tracks. I do like Burning Rope a lot, though, and there is other strong material for sure
There are some good songs on ATTWT but I feel it is let down by the production. It sounds a bit rushed by Genesis’ standards with too many samey keyboard textures and anonymous guitar parts. FYFM is a glorious exception though; wonderfully quirky pop that is genuinely heartwarming.
...And Then There Were Three... - when it came out I thought they've betrayed everything I loved about music and for decades I hated it, but the last 10 years I've liked it and nowadays I get a warm feeling listening to it. If you get a hold of any of the original real Charisma CD editions for a decent price, grab them - otherwise any V/C non remastered CD will do, they all sound fine. The remix is unlistenable to my ears, a compressed disaster. Bought it on vinyl upon release, almost everyone at the store listened to it, they were huge by then, so IMO opinion they wouldn't have needed to go commercial. Best tracks: Down and Out, Burning Rope Worst tracks: Say it's Alright Joe, Follow You Follow Me. Better sounding then W&W and yet another lovely art work.
ATTW3 is a case of many too many. Other than "Undertow," "Burning Rope," and "Follow You, Follow Me," the rest leave me cold. Too proggy for pop, too poppy for prog. They nailed the balance with Duke, so perhaps ATTW3 was a necessary stepping stone.
This was last Genesis studio album I bought when exploring the back catalog in the late 80's. To me it feels like a transition album - there are some excellent songs but it seemed that they were making a deliberate move away from the epics and sounds that I love. Since I came to them from the 80's era, I knew the sound would change - it was interesting to hear but I think they have many stronger albums than this one. After a few listens I rarely played it. Times change, the band needed to change, too. Prog was unfashionable and people weren't listening to 20 minute long songs anymore. As much as I enjoy Wind and Wuthering, in some ways it sounds like a dead end - time for a change in direction. I have no problem with pop Genesis - some of my favorite songs are yet to come - but I feel like this album is them struggling to write shorter more concise songs. (Tony has said that it was harder for them to write a 3 minute pop song than a 10 minute epic - I think that shows on this album.) All that said - there are some excellent songs on the album, too. Over time the album has won me over. It's not their best - it's probably in my bottom three Genesis albums but given that Genesis is my favorite band, that still puts it pretty high overall. There are growing pains evident but the good moments more than make up for them. Time to give it another listen.
Generally speaking, I view ...And Then There Were Three... as a huge improvement over Wind & Wuthering. This is not meant to be any sort of condemnation of Steve Hackett, but I think it mostly comes down to something as simple as the songs being better on this album. The band would improve even more on their next album, but this one was a turn in the right direction. There's a density to the sound here that belies the reduction in the number of performers. There is an epic, widescreen scale to the music here that appeals to me, almost a forerunner of what would come to be known as the "Big Music" of 1980s Irish/British rock (think U2, early Waterboys, mid-period Simple Minds, etc.). I know that we will be discussing each track in detail, but I've always loved "Down and Out" and consider it one of the band's classic album openers, along with "The Musical Box", "The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway", "Dance On A Volcano", and "Behind The Lines". "Undertow" and "Snowbound" are both beautiful tracks, and I love the guitar sounds and western American imagery of "Deep In The Motherlode". "Many Too Many" is lovely, and "Scenes From A Night's Dream" is very enjoyable, despite a weak lyric. "Follow You Follow Me" is a nice closer, although it certainly lacks the epic grandeur of many of the band's other album closers. That said, this album isn't perfect. "Ballad of Big" is a misfire, a jumble of mismatched parts capped by a silly lyric/story and one of Phil's more annoying early lead vocals. "Say It's Alright Joe" should be a track I like, but it doesn't quite come together for some reason, despite a strong Phil lead vocal. As for "The Lady Lies", well, the less said, the better (at least right now). On the other hand, "Burning Rope" is a Genesis masterpiece and one of their all-time best songs. Tony outdid himself on this one. I don't remember when I bought this one (on LP), but it must have been in around 1981-2 when I was grabbing all of their studio albums. I've always loved the album cover - along with The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway, Seconds Out, and Duke, I'd say it's their best.
Note: ATTWT was one of very few albums that Charisma as an independent label had time to release on their own on CD before they were bought by Virgin, the other two Genesis albums was ATOTT and Duke (they also released PG 4). All those was released in 1983. Not until later, in 1985 after Virgin bought Charisma, the rest of their back catalogue prior to Abacab was released on CD - this is the reason for the cropped covers on those, but not on these three.
I didn’t get into Genesis properly until the Duke era, when a friend and I saw the 1980 tour. I was blown away and soon set about the back catalogue. And Then There Were Three, was an early purchase for me and I absolutely loved it: still do. With songs like Snowbound, I always think of ATTWT as a winter album, so this an apt time to play it. Of course, I’m a monster Genesis fan now, but that album is still up there with the Gabriel era: maybe not quite as good, but not far behind. Saying that, I do love every Genesis album up to, and including, Invisible Touch. Favourite track: Deep In The Motherlode.
...and then there were three... seems to be the tipping point for a lot of Genesis fans. For some, anything after Hackett left is unacceptable. Others grudgingly concede its merits, typically on the premise that it still has a few "proggy" moments to it, while another group generally like it and think it is a decent piece of work from the trio. And of course there are those that count it as one of their favorites. Basically, this is largely where fans start to divide and define their loyalties. Me? Well, I'll wade in as this discussion moves forward.
And Then There Were Three was a sign of where they were heading. Half pop, half prog. Without Hackett and with an aim to actually start making money from music at last. This is where a lot of fans said bye bye. The writing was on the wall. I personally jumped after Duke. With Duke and later albums, Genesis developed a whole new group of fans. Hence, ATTWT is the border between Genesis 1 and Genesis 2.
...And Then There Were Three... I really like this album, but I wish I was the producer. I would try to convince Tony to explore a bit more the different sounds and textures of his keyboards arsenal - he sounds lazy and repetitive here whereas on earlier albums he used a different keyboard sound for each song. Mike does a fine job both on bass and lead guitar. It's wonderful to hear such "simplistic" guitar work on a prog/pop album. Phil isn't the singer he'd become yet, but sings from his heart and his drumming is great as usual. As for the songs, I don't care a thing if they are 3 minute pop songs or 10 minute prog epics. I like melodies in the first place, and there are plenty of delicious melodies on this album - so I really don't care if they were changing their style or whatever. Again, I have mixing and mastering issues. I think they could have used the stereo panning to a greater soundscape effect and there was no need to compress the sound that much - even though the album is nearly an hour long. I have some Miles Davis and Todd Rundgren albums with over 30 minutes of music on each side and the sound is LOUD and the dynamic range kicks serious asses with gusto! That 22 minute talk is an exaggeration.
