Gentle Giant - Album by album thread

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by mark winstanley, Oct 23, 2018.

  1. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product Thread Starter

    Ok well without spending hours on it.
    The drums on the cd (cd/dvd quad set) during on reflection are certainly not barely audible.
    I don't have the ear i once had, but there seems to be a negligible difference if any between the drums on i lost my head version and the cd/dvd version ...
    Time to kill again if there is actually a difference between the vocal mixes it must be negligible... on the i lost my head and cd/dvd versions it sounds very close if not identical.
    I do only have one player, so i can't cue them up together and switch out, but as best as i can tell they are pretty much the same.
    The only conclusion i can draw is that the i lost my head version is also the incorrect one, or the cd from the cd/dvd version isnt the one way issued version.
    That's about all i have guys, sorry if it isn't helpful.
     
  2. no.nine

    no.nine (not his real name)

    Location:
    NYC
    The section in question would be the end which eventually fades out. On the One Way, I wouldn't call the drums inaudible, but they're MUCH lower in the mix than they should be.

    I think a give away about that CD being the same as the One Way would be if you hear Derek singing "And with no questions then" in "Time to Kill" instead of Kerry. On the One Way, that one's very obvious.
     
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  3. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product Thread Starter

    On both versions that I have Kerry sings the solo parts and Derek and Kerry (and possibly others) sing the harmonised parts ...
    The first line of the bridge - "And with no questions then" is Kerry ... unless Derek was capable of mimicking him very closely. It is that soft breathy vocal that I always associate with Kerry

    The drums are almost certainly no different on "On reflection"
     
  4. no.nine

    no.nine (not his real name)

    Location:
    NYC
    OK, then that's the album mix, which honestly, I'd expect to be the case on an EMI release. But is your other CD on One Way? If so, maybe you have the first pressing, which IS the right mix.

    If this is bogging the thread down, I'm happy to continue the conversation in PM. :)
     
  5. It sounds like what you own is the FIRST One Way version of the CD, that is the awful sounding but regular stereo mix: the same mix as the LP. It would be impossible otherwise for you to hear Kerry instead of Derek in that spot...
     
  6. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product Thread Starter

    I kinda guessed so lol
     
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  7. Here is another clue: "The second One Way disc is missing the drum roll at the very end of the album." So, I haven't checked this myself, but as per this indication, if you have the final loud drum burst, occuring long after the final note of the album, just like on the LP, what you have is NOT the "possibly folded-down from quad, alternate mix".

    There is a clue to differentiate from the outside both One Way CDs, but I can't find it back. I can't remember if it was or not a new catalogue number...
     
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  8. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product Thread Starter

    The i lost my head version is exactly the same.
    From what i saw the one way version came out in 95 .... neither of these discs mention one way anywhere, just chrysalis

    Edit - i actually don't find either sound bad ...
     
  9. no.nine

    no.nine (not his real name)

    Location:
    NYC
    This is correct; I forgot about that drum burst. It comes following some silence after the last chord has faded away. So playing that last track straight until the disc ends is a sure fire way to find out!

    There's no difference on the packaging itself, but the first pressing has the matrix info of "AM6/CDL-57338". Any other matrix is the 2nd one.
     
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  10. That is right! I don't have the 1st One Way version anymore (no tears shed!), but I've just checked my 2nd version and indeed the final drums are missing. And indeed also, it's a different matrix than the one you posted.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2018
  11. no.nine

    no.nine (not his real name)

    Location:
    NYC
    Yeah, One Way wouldn't be mentioned there because their only involvement with the album was licensing the rights from EMI to reissue it.

    Oh boy, are you lucky! The first One Way reissue was recalled due to complaints, which is how we all wound up with the interesting (but wrong) alternate version. So, good for you that the sound doesn't bother you. (I can't think of any way to word that so it doesn't sound sarcastic, but honest - I'm NOT being sarcastic).
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2018
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  12. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product Thread Starter

    The drum roll is at the end
     
  13. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product Thread Starter

    That's cool, I'm not offended. My audiophile days are long gone.
    If it isn't clipped or muddy, I'm happy :)
     
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  14. no.nine

    no.nine (not his real name)

    Location:
    NYC
    TADA!

    Definitive proof that you have the first One Way disc (but that was looking to be the case anyway).
     
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  15. Dok

    Dok Senior Member

    Was their not a 3rd One Way release?
     
  16. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product Thread Starter

    Lol
     
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  17. no.nine

    no.nine (not his real name)

    Location:
    NYC
    Not to my knowledge, but they DID continue with further pressings of the 2nd one even after they (presumably) found out that it also screwed up. That's why there's more than one matrix for that mix. They probably didn't care anymore!
     
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  18. Dok

    Dok Senior Member

    I lost track instead of my head! :shh:

    Free Hand - The Gentle Giant Home Page

    USA One Way Records, CDL-57338. "AM6/CDL-57338" is printed on the inner rim of the disc. (Out of print and recalled due to poor quality)
    USA One Way Records, CDL-57338. "ESK<010>CDL57338" is printed on the inner rim of the disc. Fans report that some discs are labeled 57388, 01<block> 94, and either 1 1-1-2 EMI JAX, 1-1-3 EMI JAX, 1-1-4 EMI JAX, or 1-1-5 EMI JAX."

    Alternate master tape
    The second One Way release has much better sound than the first, but it was created from a very unusual master tape. Rich Goodhart reports the tape "is a quickly made rough mix tape of the finished multi-tracks, never intended to be a master tape and shouldn't even be thought of as one. How One Way got a hold of it is a mystery to me, though I am glad they did for the alternate view." Some of the instrumental and vocal parts are different from those of the original album!

    • Some of the lines in "Time To Kill" are sung by Derek Shulman instead of Kerry Minnear; for example, "And with no questions then, he finds his way."
    • The drums in "On Reflection" enter half a verse earlier than in the original.
    • And worst of all, at the climax of "On Reflection," when the full band comes CRASHING in, the drums are barely audible!
    In addition, there are a few extra measures on the guitar/drum break of "Just the Same." Finally, if you have a good stereo system, you can hear some background noise like lip smacks and breathing. Details on this master tape can be found in issue 3 of Proclamation magazine.

    Defects
    The first One Way release has terrible sound quality. It is very muddy and lacks treble. Supposedly, it was not mastered from an original master tape. After complaints from listeners, One Way recalled the disc from stores, remastered the disc, and rereleased it.

    Both One Way discs used incorrect or poorly chosen master tapes. Both One Way discs incorrectly say that the album was made in 1972.

    The second One Way disc is missing the drum roll at the very end of the album.
     
  19. mx20

    mx20 Enthusiast

    Location:
    Raleigh, NC
    That drum fill at the very end scared the s*** out of me when I first played my Alucard CD! (I guess I never noticed it on my vinyl copy)
     
  20. No wonder you heard Kerry! :O)

    ...This odd animal of a CD shouldn't be too hard to find on ebay I suppose. The sellers who advertise "Alternate mix" will likely charge big dollars. Otherwise just ask first for the matrix code.
     
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  21. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product Thread Starter

    On Reflection
    Robert Taylor of AllMusic wrote that "On Reflection" was revolutionary for its time, due to the band's vocal approach. Taylor also wrote that the song was one of prog-rock's defining moments.[4]

    Music webzine Sea of Tranquility called the song a classic, and wrote that "On Reflection" probably never appealed to non-progressive rock fans, but that most fans of the genre considered the song "a remarkable achievement."[5]

    uDiscoverMusic also commented on the song positively, writing that the song's opening four-part fugue remains one of Gentle Giant's and the progressive rock genre's defining moments.[6]

    Paul Stump in the 2005 book Acquiring the Taste wrote that the song was an example of the band's "mastery of writing and performing intensly complex contrapuntal music", and that it was an instant hit when they performed live.[7]
    --------------------------------------------
    As The above reviews state this song is magnificent.
    The opening acapella section is striking and melodically beautiful. It takes the form of a quite complex fugue and leads us into a melancholy refrain sung by Kerry.
    Although one could interpret the lyrics as being about a relationship break up, I think the relationship is with the record company prior in this instance. I think a lot of the lyrics on this album are directed at their previous record company and the band's feeling of freedom having been set free from them.
    The second part of the opening section is accompanied by piano and then tuned percussion. and grows in stature and beauty during this section. Some drums enter and we have a fade out on the phrase " all around". Fading up during this is Kerry's vocal section that has the piano and a flute/ tin whistle? ... We get a small bridge that has a return to the opening vocal section, but it is very short and we return to Kerry's lament.
    We have a sectional piece next with the "all around" chant broken up by burst of music. We then enter the instrumental section the is again in the form of a fugue with the instruments sharing a reprise of the melody played at a quick pace and arranged in such a way as to make it quite breath taking.
    I guess being so unusual in the field of rock that some may not like this, but I think a couple of listens reveals this track to be an incredible statement of brilliance, that although very different, is one of the high watermarks of the whole progressive era.
    I think this is magnificent. We get a marvelous rearrangement for the live version which comes up very soon on the Playing The Fool album.
     
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  22. dennis the menace

    dennis the menace Forum Veteran

    Location:
    Montréal
    It`s available through Discogs for less than $15US + shipping (AM6/CDL-57338).
    Gentle Giant - Free Hand (CD, US, 1990) For Sale | Discogs
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
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  23. dennis the menace

    dennis the menace Forum Veteran

    Location:
    Montréal
    The other one (ESK"010"/CDL-57338) is available through eBay for just about the same price. Just be sure to confirm the matrix number with the seller first.
     
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  24. There was a great musicological analysis of this song posted at one point in this thread (or elsewhere?). IIRC the author identified by mistake the third voice from the a capella fugue as being Gary's. It's Kerry's instead - the bass voice in Gentle Giant's choirs, curiously and I suppose unexpectedly, is always Kerry's.

    So the order of the fugue is 1) (left) Derek; 2) (right) Ray (who sings with a lisp); 3) Kerry (bass, on the left); and 4) either Gary or John (right).

    I know that it's Gary who sang the 4th part live, perhaps because John needed to switch between the marimba up front and his drum kit in the back. But I have some doubt about that voice from the studio version...

    I think they're double-tracked (ADT?) so they sound like 8.

    The reprise of that fugue with the instruments in the end is splendidly tight! The only thing I regret is how John's drums are recorded during that part (where he swings like mad!); it's washy and too thin, for both the context and how John usually sounds. The version I checked this on is the DRT CD.
    I love the concert arrangement they came up with, but I always miss that rockin' fugue!
     
  25. abzach

    abzach Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sweden
    Never mind the One Way, go for my suggestion instead.
     
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