"Ghosting" on vinyl? (Adjacent Groove Pre-echo)*

I’ve got it on a few records. I’m not sure it’s ghosting through from the adjacent groove in my case as it’s on 12” singles where the grooves are relatively far apart.

It’s nothing that bothers me but it’s quite an interesting phenomenon. I’ve got a test press of a record that was recut for the release as the artist rejected it.

 

In some cases, it's print-through on the tape itself. There's a lot of it on the Sony Legacy edition of Jimmy Giuffre's Free Fall on CD. It's very subtle, nuanced music with a lot of silence. As a result, if you listen carefully, you can hear Jimmy Giuffre soloing with his own ghost.

 

Too bad you sold that Zep II. Might have been a RL version possibly?? At any rate, that whole album seems like it's "ghosting" most of the time. I think Houses of the Holy does it too.

 

I hear it on a lot of records now.
IMO its:
When the lathe cuts the very first disc(father?), is it possible that as it “carves” the groove, that it’s displacing material on both sides on that rotation turn and affecting the physically adjacent portion from the previous rotation turn, hence slightly audible?
However, due to the sheer amount of records I hear it on, I do wonder if my cartridge is slightly misaligned or my tracking is off? Annoys me sometimes, especially on albums like Sabbath Vol 4 or Zep 2, it kind of premepts the heavy bits and spoils it for me.

 

Yea! I forgot about that one, but it has it too.

 

That’s a better description: You can hear the song start in the background.

Wouldn’t it take many years for “print through” to happen? It happens on Somebody to love as well, as another poster shared and that taoe couldn’t have been stored for much more than a couple of months. What does “storing the tape heads out” mean?

 

What do you believe your cartridge alignment does that creates this sound? I think alignment is unlikely.

 

Lee Konitz did a solo sax album released on the Inner City label in the 70's and the pre-echo gets annoying at times. I think the digital release didn't have this problem.

 

So do I.

But I hear it on the Hoffman Rumours, does anyone else?

I hear it on approximately 75% of my records. Can it only be pre echo?

 

Thanks for the follow-up.

I’ve done a fair amount of recording on reel-to-reel and cassette and I learned a lot in my 50 years of doing it. What I’ve come to realize is that Professional recordings frequently have audible issues that could have easily been avoided. The one most relevant here is relying on the “on-the-fly” erasure when recording rather than using a new, virgin tape for the Master. Hearing my previous recording on a tape I was re-using led me to always sacrifice a virgin when recording

First, when playing a new tape, the tape hiss noise is generally much lower on a new tape than an erased one. Second, even on a Teac 3300, it doesn’t quite completely erase the previous recording, particularly a “hot” recording. The level at record time makes a difference. I know that a Teac isn’t the pinnacle, so maybe a Revox, Studer, or Ampex does a better job. But its a physically challenging task to eliminate all remnants of a recording by completely realigning EVERY tiny ferrous molecule, or ferrite atom, on just that one, narrow strip of tape for that track, without disturbing the adjacent track(s) as it flies by the erase head. It’s more difficult to believe that it happens, than to believe it doesn’t.

I’ve heard so many rookie mistakes on released recordings like, audible clipping from track/instrument recorded at too high of a level, an instrument/track being cutoff too early (background guitar in Ten Years Gone), particularly Led Zeppelin, that a young rock band just re-using the same tape for
every mixdown, is pretty likely. That’s what I’ve attributed the “pre-sound” to, but it’s just a guess. Are there any professional engineers on here that actually have chosen the blank, mounted it on the deck, set the levels and participated in a final mixdown? Is this a possible explanation? Print through sounds feasible too, but, in the cases of “Somebody to Love”, and Whole Lotta Love”, even for a hot recording, the openings of those songs are relatively low levels relative to the rest of the sound so is it really likely that the magnetic field from two narrow tracks is strong enough to cross the substrate and align the material on that tape layer? Maybe if it’s wound too tightly? Magnetic field strength decreases by the inverse cube of distance and it’s very weak on tape.

Could it be both things?

 

Anyone who has ever listened to The Wall on vinyl since 1979 could hear at least 4 or 5 occurences of the first guitar power chord before it actually happens, during the little quiet introduction music.
Anyone who only has listened to The Wall on CD has no idea what I'm talking about

 

Maybe my query is about something different than yours. On a vinyl record, I can hear a bar or two of the song that is about to play in the background of the silence before the song actually begins. I do not know if this applies to digital copies as well. Is that what you’re referring to?

 

Kept me awake for months. When I did manage to sleep, it pre-echoed through my dreams.

Seriously though, I first heard this "phenomenon" on a Stan Freberg recording back in 1963, which was a send-up of "The Yellow Rose of Texas" where he does a "rebel yell" at the beginning of the track. I could hear it faintly a second or two before the real thing. I actually liked it.

 

It's exactly the same. It's usually a revolution of the record in front.

 

Funny I was only reading about this today, apparently DMM was supposed to almost eliminate it. Personally don’t own any records mastered this way to know for sure

 

Most annoying is School, the opening track of Crime Of The Century - talk about (briefly) ruining the experience. The album being so superb for songwriting, performance and production this is soon forgotten.

Cannot recall if it was present on my original UK pressing which I stupidly sold when I bought the MFSL, which didn't have it, but most certainly was on another UK pressing which I bought as I preferred a third UK pressing to the Mo-Fi! I sold the Mo-Fi in the nineties way before it was selling for stupid money.....

 

So jumping to practical measures here…

If you have a LP with distracting pre-echo is likely makes no difference swapping out a new copy?

 

So due to a cat-related incident recently, I find myself with a slightly bent cantilever. In the process of confirming this, I was playing Eno's Here Come The Warm Jets, and I noticed pre-echo at the beginning of the first track. I'm not sure I've ever noticed this before. I have a replacement stylus I'm going to install and align tomorrow. A good opportunity to put the misaligned cartridge theory to the test.

 

On some records, jazz mostly but can be other records with quiet passages, I hear, faintly, the music before it's about to be played. This is mostly when a loud passage or instrument is about to play - usually trumpet or saxophone but can be piano as well.

Is this "crosstalk" between the grooves? Is it something not set properly with my VTA/VTF, azimuth? Does it have something to do with the mastering process?

I have heard it on more than one turntable or even type of turntable - VPI uni-pivot arm vs Technics gimbaled arm for example.

Does anyone else notice this? Wondering as it can be slightly annoying at times.

 

I think 'ghosting' is the term, it's an issue that comes when (old) master tapes have some 'print through' sound that appears just one rotation before the actual sound comes.
Cassette tapes also have that problem sometimes. But it also comes from LP pressings themselves when the grooves are about to be manufactured, if I'm not wrong.

 

It can be print-through if the master was analog recording tape, or it can be "pre-groove echo" which is a physical manifestation that can occur when cutting the master lacquer, quite common back in the day. It's not a playback alignment issue nor one that can be corrected by you.

In either case there is nothing you can do about it. If anything, it's showing you how good your system is if you can hear it.

 

Good to know - thanks for the info.

I'll stop being so analytical and just enjoy the music, as I should be doing.

 

I get it too on occasion with older LP's. It is especially noticeable on headphone listening. Not often and I cannot give specific titles. I always thought it might be print-through on the source tape. I used to get the same thing on cassette tapes.

 

Ghost grooves. Very common phenomenon with LPs.